Author Topic: Trying to understand Liberals  (Read 11676 times)

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sirs

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Trying to understand Liberals
« on: May 18, 2011, 01:49:04 PM »
The liberal vision of government is easily understood and makes perfect sense if one acknowledges their misunderstanding and implied assumptions about the sources of income.

Their vision helps explain the language they use and policies they support, such as income redistribution and calls for the rich to give something back.

Suppose the true source of income was a gigantic pile of money meant to be shared equally amongst Americans. The reason some people have more money than others is because they got to the pile first and greedily took an unfair share. That being the case, justice requires that the rich give something back, and if they won't do so voluntarily, Congress should confiscate their ill-gotten gains and return them to their rightful owners.

A competing liberal implied assumption about the sources of income is that income is distributed, as in distribution of income. There might be a dealer of dollars. The reason why some people have more dollars than others is because the dollar dealer is a racist, a sexist, a multinationalist or a conservative. The only right thing to do, for those to whom the dollar dealer unfairly dealt too many dollars, is to give back their ill-gotten gains. If they refuse to do so, then it's the job of Congress to use their agents at the IRS to confiscate their ill-gotten gains and return them to their rightful owners. In a word, there must be a re-dealing of the dollars or what some people call income redistribution.

The sane among us recognize that in a free society, income is neither taken nor distributed; for the most part, it is earned. Income is earned by pleasing one's fellow man. The greater one's ability to please his fellow man, the greater is his claim on what his fellow man produces. Those claims are represented by the number of dollars received from his fellow man.

Say I mow your lawn. For doing so, you pay me $20. I go to my grocer and demand, "Give me 2 pounds of steak and a six-pack of beer that my fellow man produced." In effect, the grocer asks, "Williams, you're asking your fellow man to serve you. Did you serve him?" I reply, "Yes." The grocer says, "Prove it."

That's when I pull out the $20 I earned from serving my fellow man. We can think of that $20 as "certificates of performance." They stand as proof that I served my fellow man. It would be no different if I were an orthopedic doctor, with a large clientele, earning $500,000 per year by serving my fellow man. By the way, having mowed my fellow man's lawn or set his fractured fibula, what else do I owe him or anyone else? What's the case for being forced to give anything back? If one wishes to be charitable, that's an entirely different matter.

Contrast the morality of having to serve one's fellow man in order to have a claim on what he produces with congressional handouts. In effect, Congress says, "You don't have to serve your fellow man in order to have a claim on what he produces. We'll take what he produces and give it to you. Just vote for me."

Who should give back? Sam Walton founded Wal-Mart, Bill Gates founded Microsoft, Steve Jobs founded Apple Computer. Which one of these billionaires acquired their wealth by coercing us to purchase their product? Which has taken the property of anyone?

Each of these examples, and thousands more, is a person who served his fellow men by producing products and services that made life easier. What else do they owe? They've already given.

If anyone is obliged to give something back, they are the thieves and recipients of legalized theft, namely people who've used Congress, including America's corporate welfare queens, to live at the expense of others.

When a nation vilifies the productive and makes mascots of the unproductive, it doesn't bode well for its future.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2011, 02:04:47 PM »
  Well said .

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
  Seems as if there would be a good job somewhere for someone who was a good translator Liberal> Conservative and back.

Google doesn't translate this , I already checked.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2011, 06:19:12 PM »
This is utterly stupid.

You make it sound like liberals want to confiscate 100% of what people earn to donate it to others, and that is bnot the case.

The current dispute is about whether those making over $200,000 per year (FIVE TIMES the national average) should pay 32% or 35% of money above $200K in taxes to help run the government.

And you make it sound like liberals want to enslave Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and chain them to an oar of a galley and dig up Sam Walton and render him for his fat.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2011, 06:23:53 PM »
Wow...a hard core liberal not grasping how to understand liberals??     ;)   Notice also yet ANOTHER example of the deflection master, implying the piece is about liberals wanting to confiscate 100% of everything rich, and give that 100% to everything not rich
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2011, 07:43:32 PM »
This is utterly stupid.

You make it sound like liberals want to confiscate 100% of what people earn to donate it to others, and that is bnot the case.

The current dispute is about whether those making over $200,000 per year (FIVE TIMES the national average) should pay 32% or 35% of money above $200K in taxes to help run the government.

And you make it sound like liberals want to enslave Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and chain them to an oar of a galley and dig up Sam Walton and render him for his fat.

  Is it truely fair that 95% of the expense of the government be paid by less than 10% of the population?
   I mean there is just no way they are getting good value for their money.

BT

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2011, 08:02:33 PM »
This is utterly stupid.

You make it sound like liberals want to confiscate 100% of what people earn to donate it to others, and that is bnot the case.

The current dispute is about whether those making over $200,000 per year (FIVE TIMES the national average) should pay 32% or 35% of money above $200K in taxes to help run the government.

And you make it sound like liberals want to enslave Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and chain them to an oar of a galley and dig up Sam Walton and render him for his fat.

Actually there are two disputes.

Whether present government spending is sustainable

and whether tax increases are needed to bring revenue in line with spending.

If the answer to 1 is no then raising taxes (2) on  everyone  in addition to cuts in spending might be a solution.

Targeted solutions will not work if the problem requires universal cuts and universal tax increases.

I don't see how taxing based on class is any more fair than taxing based on gender race or creed.


sirs

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2011, 08:16:46 PM »
And if I understand correctly, you can raise the taxes on every millionaire/billioniare in this country, and it won't even dent the amount of debt we've currently acrued, under this President and Democratic Congress
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2011, 08:19:41 PM »
I am pretty sure that ending the tax breaks on the wealthiest would do a LOT MORE than ending funding for Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS.

And you tend to not understand correctly. Often, you appear not to understand at all.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2011, 08:23:19 PM »
News flash, the weathiest are already paying FAR more than their fair share.  You tend to not understand that concept correctly. Often, you appear not to understand at all 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2011, 08:41:39 PM »
Quote
I am pretty sure that ending the tax breaks on the wealthiest would do a LOT MORE than ending funding for Planned Parenthood, NPR and PBS.

I'm pretty sure that raising taxes on everyone and seriously cutting spending is the only fair solution, if the government we have is the one we want.





Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2011, 09:11:00 PM »
I agree with that as a better way to lower the debt.

Note that I was comparing two other lesser options, not reducing the debt.


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2011, 10:39:55 PM »
I agree with that as a better way to lower the debt.

Note that I was comparing two other lesser options, not reducing the debt.

I understand what you were saying. I'm just saying it's time for the posturing to end.
That is if the problems are as serious as advertised.

Targeting the rich is as fair as targeting retired professors who were smart enough to live frugally and invest what they had left over. Where is the fairness in that?



sirs

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2011, 11:02:43 PM »
Not to mention that "the rich"'s levels of income have huge sways, and aren't nearly as stable as that of the poor and middle class. 

To try and design a policy of running the country on the backs of "the rich" will inherently collapse, anytime the market takes a nosedive.  Someone making 10million 1 year, can easily make 2million or less the following year.  Of course, Xo would claim, hey, its still 2 million, what's he complaining about?  The complain is the 5x loss of revenue that the government was "banking" on to feed the spending beast
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #13 on: May 18, 2011, 11:14:22 PM »
XO is not the enemy. From what i understand, he is a tried and true capitalist.

sirs

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Re: Trying to understand Liberals
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2011, 11:20:29 PM »
Liberals who want to turn this country into a socialist one, ARE the enemy.  NOT evil, just WRONG, and couldn't be more wrong.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle