Author Topic: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority  (Read 3562 times)

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sirs

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Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« on: February 03, 2012, 04:54:10 PM »
On Thursday, President Barack Obama delivered remarks to the National Prayer Breakfast at the Washington Hilton and said, “Living by the principle that we are our brother’s keeper, caring for the poor and those in need.”

But according to National Review columnist Mark Steyn, author of “After America: Get Ready for Armageddon,” Obama’s comments leave much to be desired, particularly when it comes to the president’s own brother, George Hussein Onyango Obama who lives on $12 a year in Kenya.

“Oh give me a break,” Steyn said on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show on Thursday night. “For a start, when he says, ‘I am my brother’s keeper,’ his brother is back in Kenya living on $12 a year. That’s what he was living on at the time of the 2008 election. So all the president has to do in terms of shared responsibility is put a $10 bill in an envelope and mail it to Nairobi or Mombasa or wherever and he will double his brother’s salary.”

At issue is the Obama administration’s effort to require Catholic institutions to provide contraception. Steyn explained this is part of “big government” trying to supplant the church as a source of “moral authority.”

“This version of shared responsibility means the state should be your ‘brother’s keeper,’” he said. “And this is the point for the Catholic Church. Separation of church and state is one thing, but big government means the state as church, the sole legitimate source of moral authority whether it’s on contraception or gay marriage or abortion or any of the rest. And that’s what you see in Europe. Big government drives out other sources of moral authority.”

Who's moral authority is to be mandated?


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2012, 04:55:04 PM »
Mark Steyn: So Obama wants to be his “brother’s keeper”? I have an idea for him!

In the midst of espousing Biblical principles at the National Prayer Breakfast yesterday, Barack Obama made a point to say, “We are our brother’s keeper.” Interesting that he used the collective “we” — and made no mention of his actual brother or of his responsibilities to him.

Yesterday evening, author Mark Steyn filled in the gaps in the president’s speech:
Oh give me a break,” Steyn said on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show on Thursday night. “For a start, when he says, ‘I am my brother’s keeper,’ his brother is back in Kenya living on $12 a year. That’s what he was living on at the time of the 2008 election. So all the president has to do in terms of shared responsibility is put a $10 bill in an envelope and mail it to Nairobi or Mombasa or wherever and he will double his brother’s salary.”

At issue is the Obama administration’s effort to require Catholic institutions to provide contraception. Steyn explained this is part of “big government” trying to supplant the church as a source of “moral authority.”

“This version of shared responsibility means the state should be your ‘brother’s keeper,’” he said. “And this is the point for the Catholic Church. Separation of church and state is one thing, but big government means the state as church, the sole legitimate source of moral authority whether it’s on contraception or gay marriage or abortion or any of the rest. And that’s what you see in Europe. Big government drives out other sources of moral authority.”


Steyn’s comments are thought-provoking, as they usually are. His last statement, though, could easily be reversed: The decline of other sources of moral authority enables big government. It’s a chicken-egg dilemma:

- Did we first abandon a belief in the authority of church and family, leaving a hole for government to fill?

- Or did the government gradually usurp the authority of church and family, leading church and family to abdicate responsibility?

Who's whose brother's keeper??
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2012, 10:46:51 PM »
Obama's ostensible half-brother does not live in $12 per year.

The Church NEVER has had a total hold on moral authority, anywhere.

If the Holy Mother Church believes so strongly in its position that no woman should ever prevent an egg from being fertilized in her own body, then it should allow her the free will to do so, and try ever so much harder to convince her that Jesus will not approve.

The Church, unlike God, simply wants to deny free will here.

Screw the Church!
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2012, 03:41:03 AM »
The Church NEVER has had a total hold on moral authority, anywhere.

Who said they did??  the issue is the Government mandating THEIR version of moral authority on, in this case, the Catholic church.  Our founders are rolling in their graves, at this overt overreach by the our Federal Government


If the Holy Mother Church believes so strongly in its position that no woman should ever prevent an egg from being fertilized in her own body, then it should allow her the free will to do so, and try ever so much harder to convince her that Jesus will not approve.

The Church, unlike God, simply wants to deny free will here.

ITS THEIR RIGHT TO SUPPORT THE LIFE OF THE UNBORN CHILD, AND ITS FREE WILL.  Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof


Screw the Church!

In other words, screw the Constitution.  Yea, kinda figured that one, already
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2012, 09:44:13 AM »
No, just screw the Church.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2012, 12:55:31 PM »
Which in this case is also to screw the Constitution.  Yea, I got that the 1st time    ::)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2012, 01:01:35 PM »
Providing contraception is having moral authority? Please, you don't have to accept or use the contraceptives. Further, the Catholic Church gave up any moral authority they might have had years ago when they were turning their back on sexually abused children.


BSB


P.S. Leave it up to Sirs to use the constitution to reduce quality of life rather than add to it.

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2012, 01:13:09 PM »
Providing contraception is having moral authority?

Mandating it is.  Especially on a religious organization that teaches an opposing philosophy


Please, you don't have to accept or use the contraceptives. Further, the Catholic Church gave up any moral authority they might have had years ago when they were turning their back on sexually abused children.

BSB

Oh I see, because some perverts got away with horrible crimes on living children, it's up to the Government to punish others who are still in the womb.  Brilliant   

Leave it to B to jump all over the notion of how Big Government needs to take over for the Church, because they screwed up at one time.  Because of course, the government NEVER screws up      :o


Sirs


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2012, 05:30:17 PM »
There is ZERO reason to allow the Church to get special treatment to deny benefits to its employees. If they are so morally pure, they can convince their employees.

Most Catholic women use BC that the Church does not approve of during their lives.

As I have said, if men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2012, 05:38:54 PM »
There is ZERO reason to allow the Church to get special treatment to deny benefits to its employees. If they are so morally pure, they can convince their employees.

Actually, it's called the 1st amendent to the Constitution....quite a BIG REASON



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2012, 01:31:53 PM »
That is bullshit. The Church wants to be able to force its employees to toe the Church's line by denying them BC pills and devices.
Again, SCROOOOO the Holy Mother Church!
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2012, 03:01:45 PM »
That is bullshit.

Yea, that's kinda what the left has relagated the constitution as.  Just some old piece of toilet paper that occasionally needs wrung out


The Church wants to be able to force its employees to toe the Church's line by denying them BC pills and devices.

The church has every right to support a position that has always been part of its doctrine.  They have every right to have fellow catholics "toe the line" of their religious doctrine  The government has NO RIGHT what-so-ever to mandate that they change their doctrine.  Again,
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

Clear as bell, black and white.  No one has to be a Catholic or chose to work for a Catholic facility.  That's a choice.  If one chooses to remain a catholic or an employee of one, they do so KNOWING what their religious parameters are.  The only one FORCING anything is the Government, and the only ones screwing anything are those screwing the 1st amendment in support of the Government


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 01:04:37 AM »
The government isn't making Catholics do anything. They can use the ability to get contraception cheap, or not. The point is they have the right along with every other American. This is a secular nation of laws. No Church has the right to over rule those laws. If you want to live by religious law move to Saudi Arabia. Join the Taliban. Live in Texas. Support Al Qaeda.


Bull Shit Buddha
 



sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 03:39:30 AM »
The government isn't making Catholics do anything.

What part of mandate and WILL PROVIDE..., is not "the Government making the Catholics do anything"??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

It has not even been two years since Obamacare was enacted, and already the President’s health care law has taken another victim — the religious freedoms Americans hold dear, as reflected by the First Amendment.

The Obama Administration recently reaffirmed a rule under Obamacare that requires many religious employers to provide health care coverage for all FDA-approved contraceptive methods, sterilization procedures, and related education and counseling. On the grounds that certain FDA-approved contraceptive methods can sometimes “cause the demise of embryos both after and before uterine implantation,” many groups also believe that the rule forces them to cover abortion.

The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops is calling the contraception mandate an “unprecedented” attack on religious freedom. And in statement after statement issued in diocese after diocese, many bishops are publicly declaring that they “cannot” and “will not” comply with “this unjust law.” As Cleveland Bishop Richard Lennon explained, “Unless this rule is overturned, Catholics will be compelled either to violate our consciences or to drop health care coverage for our employees.”

It’s not just Catholics affected by the rule, however. Leaders from other faith traditions have expressed their concern, and the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty has already filed a lawsuit on behalf of an interdenominational Christian college that objects to providing abortion and related education and counseling in its health care insurance. “The mandate is un-American, unprecedented, and flagrantly unconstitutional,” says an attorney for the college.

As shocking as the Obama Administration’s action is, it should not come as a surprise. Heritage experts explained years ago that freedom of conscience in health care is closely linked to greater personal freedom over health care decisions. Health care expert James Capretta says that “it was inevitable — only a matter of time,” now that the government is calling the shots and making health care choices for the American people. “Just the sight of Catholic leaders’ being forced to go begging before federal officials ought to be enough to convince most Americans that handing over so much power over such sensitive matters to the federal government was a terrible, terrible mistake,” he writes.

This erosion of fundamental religious freedoms at the hands of the Obamacare bureaucracy is the sort of clash of government versus religious freedom that the Founders foresaw when, in the First Amendment of the Constitution, they prescribed that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.” Not withstanding that prohibition, the Obama Administration has imposed its will on the very institutions the First Amendment sought to protect. Though the rule provides a narrow exemption for “houses of worship,” it unfortunately burdens their affiliated institutions, schools, and hospitals — thereby violating the freedom of religion. David Addington, Vice President of Domestic and Economic Policy at The Heritage Foundation, explains that the Obama Administration should take action to exempt these institutions and preserve their religious liberty:

The Department of Health and Human Services should broadly exempt religious institutions in its final regulations implementing the Obamacare contraception mandate, pending repeal of that mandate as part of the Obamacare statute repeal. Such an exemption would allow the religious institutions both to adhere, as they must, to the tenets of their faiths and to provide group health care plans for their employees. Absent such an exemption, many religious institutions, following their faiths, will have no alternative but to stop making group health plans available to their employees and pay any fines for failure to do so.

Surely President Obama did not intend what he considers his signature legislative achievement to trample on freedom of religion and to result in the loss of group health care coverage for employees of religious institutions. This is, after all, the man who told us all in 2006 that “secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square.”


New York Archbishop Timothy Dolan cautioned, “This latest erosion of our first freedom should make all Americans pause. When the government tampers with a freedom so fundamental to the life of our nation, one shudders to think what lies ahead.” Those dire words of warning sadly ring true. Obamacare was designed to place total power in the hands of the federal government — in an unelected bureaucracy with the power to dictate the operation of an industry that is fundamental to Americans’ health and wellbeing. With this decision, the Obama Administration has demonstrated just how far that power can go, what freedoms it can take away, and why this law must be repealed.

Yea, let's screw the Constitution.  Gads, Nov can't come fast enough



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: Thought provoking chicken/egg debate on Moral Authority
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 02:17:39 PM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle