Author Topic: Americans still don't want more gun control  (Read 3138 times)

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modestyblase

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Americans still don't want more gun control
« on: April 18, 2007, 11:58:28 AM »
After the massacre
Apr 17th 2007 | NEW YORK
From Economist.com
http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9030529

Americans still don't want more gun control

IT IS surely an American oddity that, after the worst mass shooting in the country’s history, some are already saying that such horrors would be less likely if only guns were easier to own and carry. Americans love firearms. The second item in the constitution’s bill of rights, just after freedom of speech, religion, assembly and the press, is the right to bear arms. It is part of the national religion.

Mass killings remain rare events, whatever outsiders might think, and they also happen in other countries, including those with tight rules on gun ownership. But life in modern America is punctuated frighteningly often by such attacks. Making any sort of accurate international comparison is tricky, but some attempts have been tried. The International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA), an activist group, counts 41 school shootings in America since 1996, which have claimed 110 lives, including those in Virginia this week. IANSA also looks at school shootings in 80 other countries. Culling from media reports, they count only 14 school gun killings outside America in the same period. Putting aside the Beslan massacre in Russia—committed by an organised terrorist group—school shootings in all those countries claimed just 59 victims.

As striking are the overall rates of violent death by handguns in America. The country is filled with 200m guns, half the world’s privately-owned total. Residents of other countries may fret that criminals, gang-members and insane individuals are increasingly likely to use guns and knives. But in comparison with America, few other developed countries have much to worry about. The gun-murder rate in America is more than 30 times that of England and Wales, for example. Canada—like America, a “frontier” country with high rates of gun ownership—sees far fewer victims shot down: the firearm murder-rate south of the Canadian border is vastly higher than the rate north of it. America may not quite lead the world in gun murders (South Africa probably holds that dubious title) but it has a dismally prominent position.

What might be done to improve matters in America? The intuitive answer, at least for Europeans and those who live in countries where guns are less easily available, is that laws must be tightened to make it harder to obtain and use such weapons. Not only might that reduce the frequency of criminal acts, goes the argument, but it may also cut the number of accidental deaths and suicides.

Yet some in America are reaching the opposite conclusion. Within hours of the shootings in Virginia on Monday April 16th, a conservative blogger was quoting a Roman military historian, suggesting that “if you want peace, prepare for war” (“si vis pacem, para bellum”). Others put it more bluntly: “an armed society is a polite society”. Virginia’s gun laws are generally permissive. Any adult can buy a handgun after a brief background check (as required by federal law), and anyone who legally owns a handgun and who asks for a permit to carry a concealed weapon must be granted such a permit. Yet Virginia Tech, like many schools and universities, is a gun-free zone. Gun advocates are daring to say that if Virginia Tech allowed concealed weapons, someone might have stopped the rampaging killer. To gun-control advocates, this is self-evident madness.

The issue remains one of America’s many culture wars, dominated by an uncompromising dialogue between two extreme camps. Western and southern states, libertarians and American exceptionalists believe that guns are part of the national fabric. They say the second amendment is plain: “the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.” Gun-control advocates note the introductory clause to that amendment, “A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State”, and say that the framers of the constitution never intended America to be packed with citizens bearing private weapons.

In recent years the right-to-arms camp have been getting stronger. Even Democrats are shifting in favour. The Democratic presidential candidates carried only one state in the south or mountain West in 2000 and 2004, so the party has decided that, to win at the national level again, it must drop support for gun control. That strategy seemed to work in the congressional elections of 2006, when pro-gun Democrats did well. The likes of Jon Tester, a new senator in Montana, and Heath Shuler, a North Carolina congressional freshman, did much bragging about their lifelong gun ownership and support for the second amendment.

This suggests that, though gun laws may be tweaked after the Virginia massacre, there will be little significant change to come. The Columbine killings of 1999 failed to provoke any shift in Americans’ attitudes to guns. There is no reason to believe that this massacre, or the next one, will do so either.

Universe Prince

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2007, 03:03:17 PM »

Americans still don't want more gun control


Good.


IT IS surely an American oddity that, after the worst mass shooting in the country’s history, some are already saying that such horrors would be less likely if only guns were easier to own and carry.


It might be an American oddity, but it is also correct.


The second item in the constitution’s bill of rights, just after freedom of speech, religion, assembly and the press, is the right to bear arms. It is part of the national religion.


I was not aware that the Bill of Rights was a religious dogma.


The country is filled with 200m guns, half the world’s privately-owned total.


That's too bad. Obviously the rest of the world has some catching up to do.


Residents of other countries may fret that criminals, gang-members and insane individuals are increasingly likely to use guns and knives.


He forgot to mention their governments.


What might be done to improve matters in America? The intuitive answer, at least for Europeans and those who live in countries where guns are less easily available, is that laws must be tightened to make it harder to obtain and use such weapons. Not only might that reduce the frequency of criminal acts, goes the argument, but it may also cut the number of accidental deaths and suicides.


Not only have gun restrictions generally not reduced the frequency of criminal acts, they have generally resulting in the frequency of criminal acts increasing.


Virginia’s gun laws are generally permissive. Any adult can buy a handgun after a brief background check (as required by federal law), and anyone who legally owns a handgun and who asks for a permit to carry a concealed weapon must be granted such a permit.


And now compare Virgina's violent crime rate with that of Washington D.C., which has had a gun ban in effect for some years now. Virgina is ranked, as I recall, somewhere around 50 while D.C. holds the top spot at number one. Weird how that works out, i'n'it?


Yet Virginia Tech, like many schools and universities, is a gun-free zone.


And did that stop the gunman in any way?


Gun advocates are daring to say that if Virginia Tech allowed concealed weapons, someone might have stopped the rampaging killer. To gun-control advocates, this is self-evident madness.


Self-evident madness? Suggesting that in light of undefended people being shot and killed the best course of action is to make sure everyone is left so undefended hardly seems like a sane and rational response to the situation.


In recent years the right-to-arms camp have been getting stronger. [...] This suggests that, though gun laws may be tweaked after the Virginia massacre, there will be little significant change to come. The Columbine killings of 1999 failed to provoke any shift in Americans’ attitudes to guns. There is no reason to believe that this massacre, or the next one, will do so either.


Good.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

modestyblase

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2007, 03:38:59 PM »
I was not aware that the Bill of Rights was a religious dogma.

I caught that phrase too! While I appreciate the snarky, uppity british tone to the Economist, that phrase did throw me.

larry

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2007, 04:21:43 PM »
I was not aware that the Bill of Rights was a religious dogma.

The original U.S. Constitution was a racist authoritarian manifesto. The U.S. Bill Of Rights was the first ten of many amendments enacted to restrict the abuses of that original constitution. I always laugh when people talk about the greatness of our founding fathers. I guess they don't know what the original U.S. Constitution really stated. There are those who would like to do away with the Bill Of Rights. If they should try, that would be the first good reason Americans have had to go to war in a very long time. It would not be the first time Americans have killed each other over a domestic issue.


Plane

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2007, 04:32:12 PM »
I was not aware that the Bill of Rights was a religious dogma.

The original U.S. Constitution was a racist authoritarian manifesto. The U.S. Bill Of Rights was the first ten of many amendments enacted to restrict the abuses of that original constitution. I always laugh when people talk about the greatness of our founding fathers. I guess they don't know what the original U.S. Constitution really stated. There are those who would like to do away with the Bill Of Rights. If they should try, that would be the first good reason Americans have had to go to war in a very long time. It would not be the first time Americans have killed each other over a domestic issue.



What should we be resisting such a thing with?

larry

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2007, 04:35:53 PM »
What should we be resisting such a thing with?

The free press is holding the fort for the time being. However, freedom of the press is under attack in many ways.

Universe Prince

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2007, 04:54:33 PM »

The original U.S. Constitution was a racist authoritarian manifesto. The U.S. Bill Of Rights was the first ten of many amendments enacted to restrict the abuses of that original constitution.


Do you prefer the Articles of Confederation?
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larry

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2007, 05:38:10 PM »
Do you prefer the Articles of Confederation?

No, I prefer the Bill Of Rights.

Michael Tee

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2007, 02:58:46 PM »
The argument that if everyone had a gun, then Cho couldn't have killed all of his victims is kind of stupid, actually.  First of all, given that Cho was in a mood to kill, and ready to die afterwards, the likeliest foreseeable result is that Cho would have opened fire, killing one or more students, taken a lot of incoming fire from all directions, killing him and perhaps some unintended victims, and the death toll would have been lower on that day in that place.  However, the higher incidence of armed individuals would have increased the overall kill rate, with cheating spouses, ungodly unAmericans, general ass-holes or the just plain unlucky found in the wrong place at the wrong time making up the additional victims list.   Or perhaps Cho would have killed more stealthily, shooting from concealed positions, using silencers, etc.  Maybe he just would have gone the plastic explosives route.

It seems to me to be undeniable that if Cho had gone to the store but delivery was made only to a licensed gun club, he not only couldn't have gotten the gun out of the club, he probably wouldn't even have bought the thing.  Arguing that he would then have bought the gun illegally or acquired some Semtex or C4 is highly speculative.  It would be extremely foolish to argue that "anyone" can acquire illegal firearms.  It's almost like saying "anyone" can break into a house or "anyone" can kill his wife.  A lot of people for a lot of reasons are not prepared to commit illegal acts - - fear of prison, fear of shame.  Once Cho had his guns, he of course had no fear of committing the illegal act of murder, but that was only because he was determined to die and had the means in his own hands.  It's a lot different for an unarmed Cho to buy guns illegally (risking police entrapment even if he can find a seller) or steal them, risking capture and imprisonment and living with the shame of his family.

Amianthus

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2007, 03:02:17 PM »
However, the higher incidence of armed individuals would have increased the overall kill rate, with cheating spouses, ungodly unAmericans, general ass-holes or the just plain unlucky found in the wrong place at the wrong time making up the additional victims list.

Since more than half of US households contain at least one firearm - and that number could be even higher, that's just what's been reported - I would argue that using your logic, our gun death toll should already be much higher than it is.

Since it isn't, your logic must be flawed.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2007, 03:04:38 PM »
It seems to me to be undeniable that if Cho had gone to the store but delivery was made only to a licensed gun club, he not only couldn't have gotten the gun out of the club, he probably wouldn't even have bought the thing.
...
It's a lot different for an unarmed Cho to buy guns illegally (risking police entrapment even if he can find a seller) or steal them, risking capture and imprisonment and living with the shame of his family.

Columbine showed that this logic is invalid as well. All the firearms that those students used were either stolen or purchased illegally - so it shows that even high school students are capable of acquiring illegal firearms.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Plane

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2007, 04:07:56 PM »
The argument that if everyone had a gun, then Cho couldn't have killed all of his victims is kind of stupid, actually.  First of all, given that Cho was in a mood to kill, and ready to die afterwards, the likeliest foreseeable result is that Cho would have opened fire, killing one or more students, taken a lot of incoming fire from all directions, killing him and perhaps some unintended victims, and the death toll would have been lower on that day in that place.  However, the higher incidence of armed individuals would have increased the overall kill rate, with cheating spouses, ungodly unAmericans, general ass-holes or the just plain unlucky found in the wrong place at the wrong time making up the additional victims list.   Or perhaps Cho would have killed more stealthily, shooting from concealed positions, using silencers, etc.  Maybe he just would have gone the plastic explosives route.

It seems to me to be undeniable that if Cho had gone to the store but delivery was made only to a licensed gun club, he not only couldn't have gotten the gun out of the club, he probably wouldn't even have bought the thing.  Arguing that he would then have bought the gun illegally or acquired some Semtex or C4 is highly speculative.  It would be extremely foolish to argue that "anyone" can acquire illegal firearms.  It's almost like saying "anyone" can break into a house or "anyone" can kill his wife.  A lot of people for a lot of reasons are not prepared to commit illegal acts - - fear of prison, fear of shame.  Once Cho had his guns, he of course had no fear of committing the illegal act of murder, but that was only because he was determined to die and had the means in his own hands.  It's a lot different for an unarmed Cho to buy guns illegally (risking police entrapment even if he can find a seller) or steal them, risking capture and imprisonment and living with the shame of his family.


If you are in England or Spain and want to kill a lot of people , you have to build a bomb or ten.

Or buy a black market wepon .

The USA has already a very well developed black market , already has three guns for every man and half a gun for every woman and has a very large sectiohe population willing to be supportive of flaunting a gun ban.

If you thought prohibiting Alkahol enriched the mob , imagine what something with twice the customer base would do.

Nothing you have suggested applys to the situation of Columbine , Nickle mines , or VT slayers because each of these were willing to plot for a month or more which would overcome all of the suggestions you have made so far.

Neither would Bonnie and Clide have been inconvienced much by any of your suggestions Clide Barrow was loth to pay for a gun when he could steal a better one , his favoriates were BAR that he boosted from National Guard armories.

Other than putting everyone capable of violence (everyone) into fishbowls for lifetime observation , (which is what they are doing in London) , or restricting access to guns so harshly that Pol Pot would be embarrased by the measures , what could you actually do to make someone who is willing to plot his violence for months , helpless and frustrated to do so?

Universe Prince

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2007, 05:52:04 PM »

The argument that if everyone had a gun, then Cho couldn't have killed all of his victims is kind of stupid, actually.


Flawed, but I wouldn't call it stupid. The flaws are not, however, what you list.

To stop Cho from killing 33 people would have needed only one person with one firearm, if that person had any skill. Contrary to your projected scenario of Cho and innocent bystanders dying in a hail of bullets, I doubt that would have happened even if there had been plenty of other students with guns.

Anyway, even if we try to imagine what might have happened if everyone had a firearm, we have to place some realistic qualifiers into the situation. Everyone owning a weapon, which is highly unlikely unless it were required by law, does not mean everyone would be carrying a weapon to class. In this circumstance, that most students and teachers would not have have been packing heat seems likely. This is Virgina Tech we're talking about, not the Dry Gulch Saloon. Which leads me to a related point. Very likely none of the people there had ever been faced with such a situation before, and would likely have done exactly what they did do, which is try to get away. Which, frankly, was probably the best thing for most them to do.



It seems to me to be undeniable that if Cho had gone to the store but delivery was made only to a licensed gun club, he not only couldn't have gotten the gun out of the club, he probably wouldn't even have bought the thing.  Arguing that he would then have bought the gun illegally or acquired some Semtex or C4 is highly speculative.


You're ignoring the fact that this murderous outburst was likely not a spur of the moment event. If he had spent much time planning this, and I think there is some reason to believe he had, then planning out how to acquire the handguns, legally or illegally, would likely not have been a major deterrent.


It would be extremely foolish to argue that "anyone" can acquire illegal firearms.  It's almost like saying "anyone" can break into a house or "anyone" can kill his wife.  A lot of people for a lot of reasons are not prepared to commit illegal acts - - fear of prison, fear of shame.


You seem to be assuming that a man not afraid to murder a lot of people and who thinks he is making a larger statement by killing those people, is for some reason going to be afraid to acquire guns illegally. I suggest that assumption is unreasonable.
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domer

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2007, 06:21:03 PM »
I posit that, while respecting the right to own guns, making their acquisition all the more difficult for all the right reasons will reduce gun deaths.

Michael Tee

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Re: Americans still don't want more gun control
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2007, 06:23:15 PM »
<<Since more than half of US households contain at least one firearm - and that number could be even higher, that's just what's been reported - I would argue that using your logic, our gun death toll should already be much higher than it is.     Since it isn't, your logic must be flawed.>>

MY logic must be flawed?  You should look at your own a little more closely.  It's impossible to verify in any way.  Depends purely on speculation.   It's exactlly like saying, "if alcohol is a factor in motor vehicle accidents, given the amount of drinking that goes on in America, our highway death toll should already be much higher.  Since it isn't, your logic must be flawed."  That's not logic that's pure foolishness.