So, seriously.....any ideas on how to deal with North Korea?

[Michael Tee]

Deterrence is obviously the answer.  It's always been the first line of defence for the USA and it's there whether talks with North Korea succeed or fail.  OTOH, we don't really know the extent of North Korea's non-nuclear needs.  They may be desperate.  There is absolutely no harm whatsoever in talking to them.

Krauthammer's second part of the deterrence formula is ludicrous.  In the first place, the USA would never retaliate, even for a nuclear attack, simply because it "might" have come from North Korea.  We already know that Pakistan has sold nuclear technology, we just don't know exactly who it's been selling to. 

In the second place, telling North Korea it's gonna be hit if anything ever happens to the USA, regardless of who is responsible is like telling North Korea to stock up on as many nukes and missiles as it can get its hands on because it has just issued a policy on the life of the United States of America on which the insured pays no premium but for which the death benefit, when due, will not only bankrupt the insurer but lead to the death of its entire board of directors.  In such a situation, regardless of North Korean complicity, any nuclear attack on US soil would lead automatically to a second strike by North Korea (and possibly China and Russia as well) in order to forestall an American nuclear attack on North Korea with fallout on its neighbours.

[sirs]

the USA would never retaliate, even for a nuclear attack, simply because it "might" have come from North Korea.  We already know that Pakistan has sold nuclear technology, we just don't know exactly who it's been selling to.  

Then how do you know they've sold such??

telling North Korea it's gonna be hit if anything ever happens to the USA, regardless of who is responsible is like telling North Korea to stock up on as many nukes and missiles as it can get its hands on because it has just issued a policy on the life of the United States of America on which the insured pays no premium but for which the death benefit, when due, will not only bankrupt the insurer but lead to the death of its entire board of directors

Sorry, but NK will cease to exist, before it could then theoretically counterattack.  But deterrence does seem to be the key approach here

[Michael Tee]

Actually, further to what I just posted, a second strike by North Korea would be virtually guaranteed whether or not it could forestall a US "retaliatory" strike on North Korea - - once North Korea knows the US was hit, it knows it's gonna be hit anyway - - so all weapons available would be launched before or after the US launches its "retaliatory" strike, but in either event as fast as possible after learning of the hit on the US.

[sirs]

once North Korea knows the US was hit, it knows it's gonna be hit anyway - - so all weapons available would be launched before or after the US launches its "retaliatory" strike, but in either event as fast as possible after learning of the hit on the US.

LOL....So, who are they going to hit, realizing they're about to become 1 big parking lot?  I don't recall Russia having the same position following Kennedy's proclaimation.  And they sure as hell had a ton more nukes than NK has.  I do believe that unlike the Islamofascists of the muslim faith, Kim has a higher desire to stay alive vs being a martyr for some cause.  Of course he's completely whacked mentally, so that does add a wild card to the normal deductive reasoning process

[Michael Tee]

<<I don't recall Russia having the same position following Kennedy's proclaimation.  And they sure as hell had a ton more nukes than NK has. >>

That's very interesting.  Following Kennedy's proclamation, all Russian nukes were removed from Cuba.  Also following Kennedy's proclamation, the US quietly committed to no more invasions of Cuba.  Also following the removal of the Russian nukes from Cuba by one year, all U.S. nukes in Turkey (all of which were aimed at Russia) were quietly removed.  Most of them had been situated near the Russian-Turkish border.

Russia and America negotiated a deal that was a little more complex than what the American people were told at the time.  The U.S. media reported a story that basically stated "We were eyeball to eyeball and the other guy just blinked."  In fact, Kennedy also made considerable concessions to the Russians, but these concessions could not be reported at the time to the American people, and - - as is evident from your own simplified version of the story - - is still not widely known in the U.S.A. today.  Americans like their history simple.

As for your other question - - think.  If your friendly neighbourhood drug dealer is busted because he was caught on tape dealing to Leroy and dealing to Prince, does that mean the cops know everybody he ever dealt to?

[sirs]

So, in other words, Russia "de-nuked" itself, by way of Cuba, following Kennedy's proclaimation.  Excellent.  So, when NK does the same, we'll have a good faith place to jumpstart further negotiations

And no, you still haven't indicated who, when, how or even if Pakistan sold any Nuclear weapon materials

[Michael Tee]

You should read a little more carefully.  There was no suggestion that the sequence was (1) proclamation by JFK (2) Russia "de-nukes" (3) other concessions are negotiated. 

This was a complex deal, negotiated in one time and place, widely implemented over time and space.  The de-nuking did NOT follow a simple proclamation with no other inducement but the proclamation.

As to your other question, the story of Pakistan's contribution to nuclear proliferation to Iran, Libya and possibly other countries as well has been the subject of a TIME magazine cover story and other media commentary.  Obviously it would be impossible to state with certainty whether the countries that Pakistan is known or suspected of having traded nuclear technology with are all the countries it actually traded with.  Neither can it be assumed that any information trafficked by Pakistan originally was not re-trafficked by the original recipients.   Very few countries that I know of, and especially now the U.S.A., would like to argue that their intelligence agencies are all-wise and all-knowing.  It would be extremely foolish and illogical for anyone to conclude that North Korea is the sole source of any nuclear information or technology that finds its way to America's enemies.

[sirs]

Obviously it would be impossible to state with certainty whether the countries that Pakistan is known or suspected of having traded nuclear technology with are all the countries it actually traded with

Meaning it's again just yor say so that they have.  Gotcha

[BT]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch:

China is constructing a barbwire barrier along its border with NoKo.

And NoKo is eager to resume the regional 6 party talks.

And SoKo wants its own Nukes, same as Japan.

[Michael Tee]

<<Meaning it's again just yor say so that they[ Pakistan] have [traded nuke know-how to buyers we don't know about.]  Gotcha.>>

Oy.  I can see that subtleties can often evade you, sirs.   Once again (third time?  fourth time?) - - it is not my say-so that they have traded nuclear secrets to other buyers.  I don't fucking know who they have traded to.  They don't confide in me.  They don't ask for my approval.  I'm out of the loop.  Got it?

It IS my say-so that I don't know if they have traded to other partners or if they have, who those other partners might be.  It is my say-so that the U.S. intelligence do not know - - and would not know - - if Pakistan had traded secrets to other partners, or who all their trading partners might have been.  It is my say-so that the U.S. public has already been badly burned by U.S "intelligence" about weapons of mass destruction buried in the sands of Iraq, so that there is a certain lack of confidence in any new intelligence that might come out of them, such as "It musta come from North Korea, chief, no other place the know-how for that nuke coulda come from."  That is, to anyone of normal sanity and intelligence, a pretty flimsy basis for incinerating millions of our fellow human beings.  Even in YOUR benighted country, it would not fly.

I hope that I spelled it out for you sufficiently this time, sirs, so that (if this isn't too much to hope for) when you end your next post with "Gotcha" you really will - - for once - - actually have "gotten it."   Aah, who am I kidding?  OF COURSE it's too much to hope for.

[Michael Tee]

<<China is constructing a barbwire barrier along its border with NoKo.>>

No!!!  A whole barbwire (Texan: Bob Wahr) fence??  Why that musta cost them at Chinese wholesale prices all of a couple thousand bucks U.S.  I can see that the Chinese are mightily pissed off at all this.  Why last night they were even inspecting North Korean trucks at the border!!!  Where will it all end?

[sirs]

it is not my say-so that they have traded nuclear secrets to other buyers.  I don't fucking know who they have traded to.  They don't confide in me.  They don't ask for my approval.  I'm out of the loop.  Got it?

What I got is your continued non verifiable claim that they have (traded nuclear materials to other folks), minus ANY facts what-so-ever to validate the claim. (We already know that Pakistan has sold nuclear technology, we just don't know exactly who it's been selling to.)   Thus, just your say so.  Yea, I got it the 1st time you pulled it

[Michael Tee]

Here ya go, sirs.  Chew on this for awhile.  If you google "Khan Pakistan nuclear secrets" you can get thousands of other sources with basically the same story.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,,1141781,00.html

Let me know when ya finish it.  I can find hundreds of other articles which you will find just as fascinating as this one.  Did you know, for example, that East Germany once built a wall all around Berlin?  Cool eh?

[sirs]

If you google "Khan Pakistan nuclear secrets" you can get thousands of other sources with basically the same story

Spread where.....to North Korea?  Again, helps reinforce who we should be targeting in our deterrent rhetoric, considering how Lybia has turned over their WMD program, and iran currently is without, does it not?

Did you know, for example, that East Germany once built a wall all around Berlin?

Yea, amazing how FACTS help validate unsubstantiated claims

[BT]

No!!! 

Yep it's true.