Palestinians: Aggressors, Not Victims

[Richpo64]

>>And I made it PAINFULLY CLEAR that I was asking for borders, legitimate recognized boundries, as some recognized governmental run body of LAND, that would validate your claim of Palestine.<<

I don't see how we could have made it clearer, but then we're talking to people who don't know the meaning of the word "is." We asked for borders, we asked for form of government. They can provide neither. All we get is name calling in return.

Case closed.

[Michael Tee]

The whole debate about whether or not there was previously a country named Palestine is ludicrous.  For the record, it appears there never was such a country.  A more irrelevant factoid is hard to imagine.

Also for the record, there are three million Arabs who have been living under Israeli military occupation in the West Bank for forty years and another 1.2 million only recently freed from Israeli military occupation in the Gaza Strip.  These four million oppressed Arabs don't want to live under military occupation any more.  The Jews have no right under international law to continue to occupy lands seized in war and in fact have been told numerous times by the UN that their ongoing occupation is illegal.  Those four million oppressed Arabs want their own country and they want to call it Palestine.  It is nobody else's business what they call it.  They could call it A-7 if they wanted to.  Whether or not the name was previously used as a country name means absolutely NOTHING.

Put another way, if the Jews' best argument against a two-state solution is that there was never a country called Palestine before, they are in BIG trouble.  There was never a soft drink called Coca Cola before the first Coke was created, but that doesn't mean that the makers of Coca Cola aren't allowed to make it and sell it under that name.

[sirs]

The whole debate about whether or not there was previously a country named Palestine is ludicrous.  For the record, it appears there never was such a country.  A more irrelevant factoid is hard to imagine.

Also for the record, leave it to Tee (& probably H), to take the most important component to this tangent, and declare it irrevelent.  Thus negating anything else that would dare debunk their POV

Put another way, if the Jews' best argument against a two-state solution is that there was never a country called Palestine before, they are in BIG trouble. 

I'd like to know who's making that arguement.   Care to cite some sources?  The pointing out that there was no country called Palestine for the Israeli to have pushed aside its citizenry and simply replaced it with their own country, with the aide of the UN, is merely a fact.  There are FAR bigger arguements agianst the reality of a 2 state solution ever materializing.  One of the biggest, if not the biggest is that a component of the current Palestinian Governming body (Hamas) has pretty much declared Israel is to be wiped out from the area completely.  Hard to get around that monkey wrench

I hope those Palestinian & Israeli kids, that Miss Henny was referring to can grow up fast, to fix their mess.  I sure don't see the adults accomplishing anything soon

[The_Professor]

This thread is similar to the current issues in the Palestininan area -- clusterf&**k. No progress is being made. Why not move on to more greener pastures. Geesh!

[Xavier_Onassis]

Everyone knows what the terms for Palestinian borders would be. The thing is that neither Israel nor Palestine will elect anyone who will agree to them.
Eventually, the Arabs will outnumber the Jews in Israel itself, and this will be settled by an election and a one-party state with no special privileges for Jews. Abba Eban predicted this long ago, and it is just as inevitable now as it was then.

A country with an established religion and special rights for those who belong to it is probably the most poisonous idea in history. Israel is doomed, eventually.

[Plane]

A country with an established religion and special rights for those who belong to it is probably the most poisonous idea in history.

I agree that this is part of the problem.
Another part of the problem is that Palestinians aspire to the same sort of state.

Is overpopulateing your Nation for the sake of voteing strength really a good idea?
If it produces a Nation it will produce a poverty stricken one.

[Henny]

This thread is similar to the current issues in the Palestininan area -- clusterf&**k. No progress is bieng made. Why not move on to more greener pastures. Geesh!

What you said, Professor. This is going to go down in history as one of the Dead Horses of the Saloon.

Although, as I will be back over on the "East Bank" permanently in less than 2 weeks (decided to move in December rather than coming back) I will re-extend my invitation to all who want to visit the Holy Land, with special excursions through West Bank and Gaza for the regular naysayers.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I agree that this is part of the problem.
Another part of the problem is that Palestinians aspire to the same sort of state.

Well, this was not true until Hamas came along. Hamas at the beginning was aided by the Israelis, by the way.

The Israelis also aided the Shiite Lebanese, who formed Hezbollah, in order to destabilize Lebanon.
 

Is overpopulateing your Nation for the sake of voteing strength really a good idea?
If it produces a Nation it will produce a poverty stricken one.

The Israelis have been recruiting people to come to Israel from Russia, Ukraine and other parts of the USSR. The proof of identity is minimal, and rarely scrutinized.

Israel is a beggar nation: a huge amount of its money comes as charity from the USA and other countries.

There are many fewer people who send vast amounts of money to the Palestinian entity.

What we are witnessing is a couple of people shooting themselves in the foot very slowly.

[Michael Tee]

sirs:  <<Also for the record, leave it to Tee (& probably H), to take the most important component to this tangent, and declare it irrevelent.  Thus negating anything else that would dare debunk their POV>>

Well, on the theory that we're all here to learn something, I'm certainly open to new ideas.  Suppose you tell me WHY it is relevant to the Israeli-Palestinian dispute to determine whether or not a country named Palestine (as opposed to a province of one or two world empires) ever existed before.  And then, if it is relevant, why it is "the most important component to this tangent."  And while you're at it, why "this tangent" has any significance at all in the overall debate over the conflict.

XO (responding to plane):  <<Well, this [that Palestinians want a state with an established religion and special privileges for its followers)  was not true until Hamas came along. Hamas at the beginning was aided by the Israelis, by the way.>>

Too true.  The main Palestinian party was the secular Fatah, Yasser Arafat's party.  The Jews began to build up the more religious Hamas as a counter-weight to Fatah, hoping to bleed Fatah support into a rival party in a traditional divide-and-rule ploy.  However an Islamic Palestinian state would be a problem for the citizens themselves to sort out.  A similar Jewish state becomes a regional problem simply because it's viewed as highly offensive not only to its own religious minorities but because it pisses off the surrounding states as well.   It is the sheer weight of numbers that makes such a state non-viable, even though in principle it should be no more offensive than an Islamic state.  At some point in the future, given the demographics, it will become objectionable for an additional reason, as the Arabs will outnumber the Jews within the borders of Israel itself,sooner if the West Bank is included, and democracy itself, even for Israeli citizens, will have to be abandoned.


sirs:  <<I'd like to know who's making that arguement.   [that there never was a country called Palestine before, so the Palestinians do not really want their own country.]  Care to cite some sources? >>

Huh?  Were we reading the same thread?  Rich was making that argument.  Right here.  This thread.

[hnumpah]

Point thus conceded, case closed.

Hard to concede a point I was never trying to make, eh?

Let me put it in simple terms you might understand.

You said there was no land called Palestine.

I proved there was, by pointing you to sites mentioning Palestine as a mandate set aside for the British to administer after WWI.

Then you decided to change your parameters and claim there were no borders and no government; both of these, however were provided for in the aforementioned mandate.

I never said Palestine was a country, and as far as I can see you haven't asked me to prove that it was. It was an area that has existed for hundreds of ears, that was properly delineated in the Palestine Mandate, and placed under British governmental administration.

I have conceded nothing. Your arrogance in assuming I have is, to put it mildly, annoying. If you want to discuss the issue without it, let me know. If not, I'm done with you.

[The_Professor]

This thread is similar to the current issues in the Palestininan area -- clusterf&**k. No progress is bieng made. Why not move on to more greener pastures. Geesh!

What you said, Professor. This is going to go down in history as one of the Dead Horses of the Saloon.

Although, as I will be back over on the "East Bank" permanently in less than 2 weeks (decided to move in December rather than coming back) I will re-extend my invitation to all who want to visit the Holy Land, with special excursions through West Bank and Gaza for the regular naysayers.

Just for curiosity and you certainly do not have to answer, why would you want to move INTO a contentious zone when you could live HERE?

[Richpo64]

>>A country with an established religion and special rights for those who belong to it is probably the most poisonous idea in history.<<

I suppose this represents the deathnel for all the Islamic countries as well. I would suggest thought that Israel does allow Arabs Israelis to vote and hold office. Based on that alone I think your death wish for Israel will come swifter to the Islamic regimes.

[Michael Tee]

<<I would suggest thought that Israel does allow Arabs Israelis to vote and hold office.>>

Interesting article on the current status of Jews in Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews#Current_status_in_Iran

Apparently they cannot hold senior positions in the military or government (I understand similar restrictions apply in Israel to Arabs) and are barred by law from the judiciary and from being the head of a public school.  I'm not sure about the reciprocity of the latter restrictions regarding Israeli Arabs and Muslims, but I'd love to know if in fact there are ANY Arab judges or heads of public schools in Israel.

Jews can vote in Iran and in fact,  like the Zoroastrians, are guaranteed that at least one member of the legislature will represent the interests of the Jewish community in Iran.  The current Jewish parliamentarian has sent a letter to Ahmadinejad protesting against his Holocaust denials.

Also from the same source, the Iranian statute regarding the amount of "blood money" due from the murderer or his family to the family of the victim was amended in 2002 so that the amount payable on the killing of a Jewish, Christian or Zoroastrian man was made  equal to what would have been paid for a Muslim man.

[Richpo64]

>> I'm not sure about the reciprocity of the latter restrictions regarding Israeli Arabs and Muslims, but I'd love to know if in fact there are ANY Arab judges or heads of public schools in Israel.<<

Examples of political, judicial and military representatives

Knesset: Arab Israelis have been elected to every Knesset, and currently hold 12 of its 120 seats. Two Arabs have served as full government ministers: Salah Tarif, a Druze, served as a Minister Without Portfolio for ten months in 2001;[110] and Raleb Majadele was appointed as minister without portfolio on 28 January 2007.[111][112] The appointment of Majadele was criticized by Yisrael Beiteinu MK Esterina Tartman who said that the appointment was "a lethal blow to Zionism," and that it damages "Israel's character as a Jewish state." Tartman's comments drew condemnation across the mainstream Israeli political spectrum.[113] Yisrael Beiteinu party leader Avigdor Liberman explained that they had no problem with the appointment of an Arab but "The problem here is the timing and the fact that a minister in the State of Israel (Amir Peretz who chose the appointment) is using the tools he has wrongfully in order to promote himself politically".[114] Meanwhile Arab lawmakers called the appointment an attempt to "whitewash Israel's discriminatory policies against its Arab minority".[115]

Nawaf Massalha, an Arab Muslim, has served in various junior ministerial roles, including Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs since 1999.[116] The first female Arab MP was Hussniya Jabara, a Muslim Arab from central Israel, who was elected in 1999.[117]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status

Supreme Court: Abdel Rahman Zuabi, a secular Muslim from northern Israel, was the first Arab on the Israeli Supreme Court, serving a 9-month term in 1999. In 2004, Salim Jubran, a Christian Arab from Haifa descended from Lebanese Maronites, became the first Arab to hold a permanent appointment on the Court. Jubran's expertise lies in the field of criminal law.[118]

Foreign Service: Ali Yahya, an Arab Muslim, became the first Israeli Arab ambassador in 1995 when he was appointed ambassador to Finland. He served until 1999, and in 2006 was appointed ambassador to Greece. Other Arab ambassadors include Walid Mansour, a Druze, appointed ambassador to Vietnam in 1999, and Reda Mansour, also a Druze, a former ambassador to Ecuador. Mohammed Masarwa, an Arab Muslim, was Consul-General in Atlanta. In 2006, Ismail Khaldi was appointed Israeli consul in San Francisco, becoming the first Bedouin consul of the State of Israel.[119]

Israel Defence Force: Arab Generals in the IDF include Major General Hussain Fares, commander of Israel's border police, and Major General Yosef Mishlav, head of the Israeli Home Front Command and current Coordinator of Government Activities in the Territories.[120] Both are members of the Druze community.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I suppose this represents the deathnel for all the Islamic countries as well. I would suggest thought that Israel does allow Arabs Israelis to vote and hold office. Based on that alone I think your death wish for Israel will come swifter to the Islamic regimes.

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Islamic countries that legally consider Muslims have more rights than non Muslims are, like Israel, a bad idea, and for the same reasons.

Mohammad, as a politician, was an asshole, or at least modern times have rendered him to be one. I think he was an improvement on the anarchic chaos that preceded him, but still, Sharia Law and Islamic states are a really bad idea. But so is Israel.