Author Topic: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences  (Read 4485 times)

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The_Professor

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U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« on: November 28, 2007, 10:59:01 PM »
Expert: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences

Wednesday, November 28, 2007 12:41 PM

By: Jeff Burt
 


Iran may be militarily impotent but a U.S. first strike would throw the Middle East into chaos while leaving Iran?s nuclear program largely intact, an Israeli military expert tells Newsmax.

Martin van Creveld, a professor of military history and strategy at Hebrew University in Jerusalem says that, for all its bombastic rhetoric and saber rattling, there is little Iran can do to protect itself from an attack by the United States or to strike back in retaliation.

Iran has an underfunded defense budget, ill-equipped ground and air forces, and a limited number of unreliable Shihab III missiles that, while technically able to reach Israel, do not pose much of a threat, van Crevald says.

Still, any first strike by the U.S. would be ill-advised, van Crevald warns.

A U.S. air attack using cruise missiles and manned aircraft aimed at knocking out Iran?s large, entrenched nuclear program would succeed only in exacerbating conflict in the Middle East and put U.S. troops in Iraq at risk. ?The scenarios are really terrible,? he says.

Iran?s leadership is in a panic, with the September bombing by Israel of a nuclear installation in Syria and implied threats by the U.S. of similar action in Iran. In response, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and other officials are ?lashing out in all directions,? van Creveld tells Newsmax.

?What makes me think they are in a panic was this commander of the Revolutionary Guard [Gen. Mahmoud Chaharbaghi] talking about 11,000 rockets that they would fire at a single moment,? he said. ?Either he?s mad or he?s trying to bluff or he?s in a panic, because militarily, it makes no sense whatsoever.?

There is little substance behind the threats. Van Creveld estimated Iran?s defense budget at about $6.3 billion?just more than half of Israel?s and less than 2 percent of the United States??hardly enough to fund a conventional force. However, that could be an indication that Iran is using its money to build its nuclear capability.

?My interpretation, and I?m not the only one who thinks this way, is that actually what has happened is that Iran has neglected its conventional defenses in favor of the nuclear program,? van Creveld says.

This is where it would become difficult for the United States, he adds. Unlike nuclear programs in Syria and Iraq, the Iranian facilities appear to be large, well concealed and well dispersed. The chances of the United States being able to knock out the entire program is remote.

?We are talking about a large program, and probably not all the components of the program are known,? van Creveld said. ?Since you don?t know them, you cannot hit them.?

Still, if struck, there is little Iran could do to retaliate. Its air force is a sorry collection of old U.S.-made aircraft left over from the Iran-Iraq War, some Russian-made fighters and homebuilt Saeqeh jets modeled after the American F5 Tiger, an aircraft last updated in the 1960s and rejected by the U.S. Air Force, he says.

Iran could foment terrorist attacks against the U.S. and Israel, but, at best, they would be ad hoc events with little strategic impact, he adds.

?Coordinated terrorist attacks are very, very difficult to organize,? van Creveld tells Newsmax. ?There may be an occasional act of terrorism ? but it won?t make any difference. Tomorrow, if Iranians blew up the White House, would it make any difference in the United States? ability to wage war against Iran? Not really.?

Militarily, the greatest risks would be to U.S. troops in Iraq, he said. Those soldiers are configured to fight an insurgency, and a conventional attack by Iranian forces could result in some U.S. troops being isolated and in danger.

?You can well imagine a scenario where they are surrounded, and where the U.S. would use tactical nuclear weapons to extricate them,? van Creveld says.

Iran also could start trouble ? what the Iranian commander could have been referring to when he talked about the 11,000 missiles ? among Persian Gulf states, which would cause the price of oil to skyrocket and have an immediate impact on the West, he says.

The question that needs to be answered by U.S. and Israeli officials is whether they need to be concerned about a nuclear Iran. Historically, every time a country?whether it was the Soviet Union, Israel, Pakistan, India or others?was to test a nuclear weapon, the United States warned of terrible consequences.

?Each time any country wants to go nuclear, the United States will invent some kind of reason why that country does not deserve nuclear weapons,? van Creveld says. ?And each time it goes nuclear, nothing happens. It?s all rubbish.?

The argument that a nuclear Iran is more of a threat than those other countries makes no sense.

?In the whole of history, who was more crazy than Josef Stalin?? he asks. ?In the whole of history, who was more crazy than Mao Tsetung? I don?t see that Ahmadinejad is more crazy than them. Maybe to the contrary. I listen to Ahmadinejad?s rhetoric, but I cannot think of even one case since 1980 and the Iranian Islamic Revolution that this country has behaved irrationally.?

In the end, what may be best for the U.S., Israel and the rest of the region is for negotiations with Iran, van Creveld said. The West should accept a nuclear Iran and draw the country into talks about setting up some kind of regional security program. Western powers also need to ensure that the Gulf states are protected, a move that he believes already is underway, possibly through a deal with the United States.

?The greatest threat coming from Iran is not to Israel,? he says. ?Israel can take care of itself. The United States has nothing to fear from Iran. It is the Gulf states that have to fear.?

 
www.newsmax.com
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                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Stray Pooch

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2007, 12:51:29 AM »
Very interesting analysis.  That was a good read.  My objections to an Iranian invasion are based more on a belief that the Iranian people are likely to follow a more sensible course over time.  I recognize that the Iranian military is a minimal threat to the US military, but I do not think Iran is not a threat to the region, and by extension a matchstick in a powderkeg.

Oh, for a muse of fire, that would ascend the brightest heaven of invention . . .

Cynthia

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2007, 01:25:49 AM »
I recognize that the Iranian military is a minimal threat to the US military, but I do not think Iran is not a threat to the region, and by extension a matchstick in a powderkeg.

Brilliant statement, Pooch.
I find your understanding of Iran quite enlightening.
Cynthia

The_Professor

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2007, 10:31:25 AM »
Very interesting analysis.  That was a good read.  My objections to an Iranian invasion are based more on a belief that the Iranian people are likely to follow a more sensible course over time.  I recognize that the Iranian military is a minimal threat to the US military, but I do not think Iran is not a threat to the region, and by extension a matchstick in a powderkeg.



I concur they are a minimal threat to us, but I wonder if the Saudis and other Gulf states like Oman concur?
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"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2007, 03:06:38 PM »
I concur they are a minimal threat to us, but I wonder if the Saudis and other Gulf states like Oman concur?

=====================================================================
How does this matter?

Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrein, Oman and the UAE are smaller in combined population than Iran, and are militarily backward. They won;t attack Iran, and Iran has had a goodly long time to attack them, but hasn't. The Saudis disagree with the Shiites in Iran, but they profit from the Haj every year, and they aren't going to risk losing this.
 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2007, 12:38:53 AM »
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEFDA1F31F934A15757C0A96E948260

Thursday, November 29, 2007
LEAD: Saudi Arabia said today that it was breaking diplomatic relations with Iran and it asked all Iranian diplomats to leave the kingdom within a week.

Saudi Arabia said today that it was breaking diplomatic relations with Iran and it asked all Iranian diplomats to leave the kingdom within a week.

The announcement, read on state-run television in Saudi Arabia and reported here by the Saudi press agency, cited several reasons for the break. Among them were the riots involving Iranian pilgrims during last summer's pilgrimage to Mecca, in which more than 400 people were killed, and a subsequent attack on the Saudi Embassy in Teheran. The announcement also cited Iranian threats against navigation in the gulf.

The Saudi action follows more than a year of increased Iranian naval attacks on Saudi vessels and the recent bombings of Saudi targets.

[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


A web search on this topic turns up some really screwy stuff.

http://www.onehajj.com/hajj/hajj-b-3.asp

http://www.cultureofiran.com/prophetbirthday.php

http://eaglespearlsofwisdom.wordpress.com/category/iran/

Michael Tee

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2007, 02:14:43 AM »
The cover of the Canadian newsmagazine, MacLean's, was "Is Now the Time to Attack Iran?"

I'm sure they didn't mean for Canada to attack the Iranians.  (They'd massacre us.)  But this right-wing little rag obviously was developing a major hard-on over the prospects of an Amerikkkan attack on Iran.  And I thought, "Iran's really an abstraction," you can't attack "Iran," you can only drop a lot of bombs on a particular part of the earth and kill, dismember and/or burn to death a large number, not of "Iranians" really but just living breathing human beings with names like Firuz and Shirin, little kids, parents, etc. so it occurred to me instead of asking if it was the right time to bomb "Iran," why didn't they run a couple of pages with pictures of Shirin and Firuz and their families, friends and neighbours and ask if it was the right time to bomb THEM?

I think it's ironic and darkly hilarious that as the Christmas holiday draws closer, all the good Christian readers with plans for holiday dinners, midnight mass, gifts, drinking, travel etc. are at the very same time regaling one another with elaborate, "well-researched" fantasies/plans  of a  huge murderous onslaught to be launched against the people of Iran just as soon as the U.S.A. can get its shit together.  Like the blood they already spilled in Iraq wasn't nearly enough.  Christianity - - the religion with peace on its lips and murder in its heart.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 02:18:41 AM by Michael Tee »

Plane

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2007, 06:11:12 AM »
I'm sure they didn't mean for Canada to attack the Iranians.  (They'd massacre us.) 


Could they do anthing conceiveable that would make an attack from Canada realistic?

If Canda is really weaker than Iran is or Iraq was perhaps it shouldn't have oil. 

Michael Tee

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2007, 09:33:18 AM »
<<Could they do anthing conceiveable that would make an attack from Canada realistic?>>

Yeah, they could torture to death a Canadian citizen.  Which they already have done.  Which neither our Liberal or Conservative governments have done jack-shit about.

<<If Canda is really weaker than Iran is or Iraq was perhaps it shouldn't have oil. >>

So if Amerikkka turns out to be weaker than China in the long run, perhaps it shouldn't have California.  See, there's a reason WHY the rule of international law is preferable to the law of the jungle.  Under much better men than its present leaders, America took the lead role in founding the United Nations and constructing the framework for an international rule of law and the non-violent resolution of international disputes for which the present "leaders" of Amerikkka have shown utter contempt and done their best to dismantle.  The least of their ugly list of achievements being to set the clock back to 1944 for the rule of law and peaceful resolution.  In any decent society, they would now be on trial for their lives in a war-crimes court, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

Plane

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2007, 02:18:25 AM »
<<Could they do anthing conceiveable that would make an attack from Canada realistic?>>

Yeah, they could torture to death a Canadian citizen.  Which they already have done.  Which neither our Liberal or Conservative governments have done jack-shit about.

<<If Canda is really weaker than Iran is or Iraq was perhaps it shouldn't have oil. >>

So if Amerikkka turns out to be weaker than China in the long run, perhaps it shouldn't have California.  See, there's a reason WHY the rule of international law is preferable to the law of the jungle.  Under much better men than its present leaders, America took the lead role in founding the United Nations and constructing the framework for an international rule of law and the non-violent resolution of international disputes for which the present "leaders" of Amerikkka have shown utter contempt and done their best to dismantle.  The least of their ugly list of achievements being to set the clock back to 1944 for the rule of law and peaceful resolution.  In any decent society, they would now be on trial for their lives in a war-crimes court, but I'm not holding my breath for it.


The rules between Nations depend on strong nations .
China is in deed likely to do as it sees right for Tiwan , even if this is fatal for all of the Tiwaneese.
Look for them to annex Libenstraum in Austrailia and Canada too, as soon as they have the strength , and we don't.

The US is the cheif reason that there is a UN or any other rule of laws between nations , but we are not requireing suicide of ourelves in the process no matter how much we like it.

Canada has been a good neighbor for the US and Canada couldn't have a better neighbor  either , if the US were as you imagine it how would Canada avoid the fate of Tibet?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 04:25:27 PM by Plane »

Michael Tee

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2007, 03:01:05 AM »
<<The rules between Nations depend on strong nations .>>

Obviously they depend on LAW-ABIDING nations.  Strength without respect for the law is not a guarantor of peace, it is a guarantor of war.  As in Iraq.  As in Viet Nam.

<<China is in deed likely to do as it sees right for Tiwan , even if this is fatal for all of the Tiwaneese.>>

Do you think that China is more likely or less likely to breach international law after seeing the example of the U.S. flouting of the Charter of the United Nations to invade Iraq?  And when in history did the invasion of one country by another result in the death of ALL of the people of the invaded country?

<<Look for them to annex Libenstraum in Austrailia and Canada too, as soon as they have the strength , and we don't.>>

What if they said the invasion was because we were hiding weapons of mass destruction from them, would that make it OK?  Even if we weren't hiding them?   What if they changed their minds and said they were invading us because they wanted to give us a better system of government, one just like theirs, would that make it OK?

<<The US is the cheif reason that there is a UN or any other rule of laws between nations , but we are not requireing suicide of ourelves in the process no matter how much we like it.>>

You're not seriously suggesting that a failure to invade Iraq would have been the equivalent of committing suicide?  (Who am I kidding?  That's exactly what you ARE suggesting!)

<< . . . if the US were as you imagine it how would Canada avoid the fate of Tibet?>>

Well, (since you ask) for many years we avoided the fate of Tibet thanks only to the might of the British Empire and the Royal Navy.  Eventually, the U.S. came to see that it could buy everything it needed from Canada with less trouble than invading and occupying the whole country (it's a pretty big country) and at this point we're just not worth the trouble.  Also, we're too similar to you in our culture, so your ruling class would have a hell of a time demonizing us sufficiently to get the public support necessary for a war.  Because you're such a racist country, the only nations that your rulers can successfully demonize are much darker-skinned than we, and don't speak English as a first language.



Plane

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2007, 03:08:43 AM »

Well, (since you ask) for many years we avoided the fate of Tibet thanks only to the might of the British Empire and the Royal Navy.  Eventually, the U.S. came to see that it could buy everything it needed from Canada with less trouble than invading and occupying the whole country (it's a pretty big country) and at this point we're just not worth the trouble.  Also, we're too similar to you in our culture, so your ruling class would have a hell of a time demonizing us sufficiently to get the public support necessary for a war.  Because you're such a racist country, the only nations that your rulers can successfully demonize are much darker-skinned than we, and don't speak English as a first language.





You mean to say that the Public approval is required for the US to fight effectively?

As if we were a democracy or something .

How did all of those European countrys attack each other so many times when they were all so white together?

I think that the sprit of "54'40 or fight" could have become a war , but as you say buying was easyer.

Buying is easyer anytime, I look forward to the rest of the world finding this out.

Michael Tee

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2007, 03:24:03 AM »
<<You mean to say that the Public approval is required for the US to fight effectively?

<<As if we were a democracy or something .>>

Enjoy it while you still can, plane.

<<How did all of those European countrys attack each other so many times when they were all so white together?>>

Religion, mostly.  Sometimes racism (Slavs/Aryans)


<<Buying is easyer anytime, I look forward to the rest of the world finding this out.>>

Wait till the sellers want euros and you only have dollars.

Amianthus

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2007, 03:38:39 AM »
Wait till the sellers want euros and you only have dollars.

That's what FOREX markets are for...
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: U.S. Attack on Iran Would Have Terrible Consequences
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2007, 10:53:02 AM »
<<That's what FOREX markets are for...>>

No shit, Sherlock.  And like any market, they're subject to the law of supply and demand.  What I get for my dollar in a FOREX market depends on how many people want it.