Author Topic: A Winter Soldier's Tale - WARNING! some graphic video shots - disturbing  (Read 15438 times)

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Michael Tee

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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/27/iraq-soldier-discusses-hi_n_103698.html

Just bringing peace and democracy the American way.  Aren't we wonderful?

BT

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I look forward to Mr. Turner placing himself under arrest with the appropriate jurisdictional authority.


Christians4LessGvt

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Michael or BT did I miss something?
Thats it?
Come on Michael please show any examples in history where war wasn't "hell".
Showing a few snippets of US Soldiers in Iraq and implying it paints the whole picture is absurd.
It would be like if I posted the pictures below and (to borrow some words from you) said
"aren't we wonderful?"














« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 11:21:42 PM by ChristiansUnited4LessGvt »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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<<I look forward to Mr. Turner placing himself under arrest with the appropriate jurisdictional authority.>>

Yeah, THAT'LL legitimize the whole operation alright.  Fixes everything just fine.

BT

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No.

That will legitimize Mr, Turner

When advocating holding others accountable, it is usually a good idea to accept accountability oneself.


Plane

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No.

That will legitimize Mr, Turner

When advocating holding others accountable, it is usually a good idea to accept accountability oneself.




Maybe he wants to become a Senator.

Michael Tee

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<<Michael or BT did I miss something?>>

Nah, nothing much.  Just this Marine telling how he shot a fat guy on a bike in front of his father and a friend.  Shot him in the chest and when he started screaming, finished him off with a second shot.  Well, I guess you missed a good laugh too - - it took seven family members and friends to carry off the dead fat guy.  That was hilarious.

<<Thats it?>>

Well, there was also the 14-year-old kid with his brains oozing out of the top of his skull.  Pretty dull stuff, eh?  And the little chuckle you might have had where the Marine says his company commander promised a special reward of four days leave to the first man in the company to kill a man by stabbing him to death.   But yeah, that's pretty much it, CU4.  Pretty tame stuff, eh?  You gotta remember, though, he was only one Marine, and he'd only been there one time.  It's not like he was laying claim to be the Heinrich Himmler of the USMC.

<<Come on Michael please show any examples in history where war wasn't "hell".>>

Oh, yeah, my uncles and cousins in WWII killed civilians for fun all the time.  It was better than pinochle.  But I get your point, CU4:  War is hell.  That's brilliant.  It excuses everything.  The guy was tortured to death?  War is hell.  Raped a TEN-year old?  War is hell.  Shot up the whole fucking family?  War is hell.  Works for me, CU4.   Say, tell me again, what's that "C" stand for in "CU4?"

<<Showing a few snippets of US Soldiers in Iraq and implying it paints the whole picture is absurd.>>

I like your attitude, CU4.  Positive thinking.  Just what the world needs.  That kid with his brains oozing out of his skull?  That's nothing, man, just a "snippet."  The fat guy on the bike shot to death in front of his father?  Another "snippet."  And offering a reward for being the first in your outfit to stab someone to death?  You got it - - a snippet.  Nothing that a few propaganda photos of GI's with cute little kids won't fix.  Don't worry.  Be happy.

<<It would be like if I posted the pictures below and (to borrow some words from you) said
"aren't we wonderful?">>

Oh, yeah.  You're wonderful, alright.  I'm your biggest fan.  USA!  All the way!  You're No. 1.

Plane

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How can a guy incriminate himself so thouroughly and stay out of jail?

Michael Tee

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<<How can a guy incriminate himself so thouroughly and stay out of jail?>>

Beats the hell out of me.  I guess, given the fanatical and relentless zeal with which the U.S. prosecutes and punishes its own war criminals, and the overwhelming respect shown by this administration for the Geneva Conventions, we have to consider it a latter-day miracle.

Michael Tee

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<<That [turning himself in for war crimes prosecution] will legitimize Mr, Turner>>

You're probably right.  In a purely relative sense, of course.  But Mr. Turner is a nobody.  One of millions.  One of millions who served, one of millions to have criticized the war.   His legitimacy as a person is of minimal to non-existent significance.  Far more interesting is the legitimacy of the invasion itself and the occupation.



<<When advocating holding others accountable, it is usually a good idea to accept accountability oneself. >>

No doubt an instructive moral precept for Mr. Turner to follow.  Hopefully it was meant as a useful admonition to Mr. Turner, should he chance to come upon this board.  I would hate to think it was just another "shoot the messenger" attempt to invalidate Mr. Turner's message by besmirching his character.

BT

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But Mr. Turner is a nobody.

Mr. Turner is a confessed war criminal. Doesn't sound like a nobody to me.

No need to shoot the messenger, the messenger did the shooting, he said so himself.

He may be a pawn to others, and i will let you figure out who the others are,  but he also is imbued with free will which means he made choices at every step of the way. Should he not be held accountable for those actions?




Michael Tee

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<<Mr. Turner is a confessed war criminal. Doesn't sound like a nobody to me.>>

Oh, but he IS a nobody.  There are thousands like him.  You could see some of them lined up to testify.  He's a nobody alright.  His crimes are so pedestrian that the MSM doesn't even bother to report them.  The government doesn't even bother to investigate, much less prosecute them.  These are stories that anyone who's interested can hear over and over again, if he or she only takes the time to hunt them down on the net.

<<No need to shoot the messenger, the messenger did the shooting, he said so himself.>>

"Shooting the messenger" is just a phrase - - it means to discredit or character-assassinate the bearer of news unfavourable to one's cause, or merely displeasing to one's ear.  The theory is that the more one can discredit the messenger (a) the less attention is being paid to the message, which ultimately will become lost and (b) the more skepticism and even outright disbelief one can generate for the message itself.

<<He may be a pawn to others, and i will let you figure out who the others are,  but he also is imbued with free will which means he made choices at every step of the way. Should he not be held accountable for those actions?>>

No, of course not, not when there are really bigger fish to fry. It's a complete distraction to focus on this one guy.  As you probably know.

BT

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No, of course not, not when there are really bigger fish to fry. It's a complete distraction to focus on this one guy.  As you probably know.

Perhaps. But this guy admitted his crimes. He did them at the behest of a rejuvenated winter soldiers group. He confessed to add credence to the cause. If he is brave enough to brag about his crimes, he should be brave enough to face the music for those same crimes.

I look forward to his trial.

But i suspect there won't be one.

I suspect as soon as the kleig lights dim, he will recant his confession, claiming he was caught up in the moment and embellished his role.

At least if he has half a brain, that is what he should do.

Before fat guys relatives see the video and hunt him down.





Michael Tee

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Perhaps. [Perhaps it's a distraction to focus on Turner, on his ability to own up to his crimes in a criminal justice concept.]

Ah, too bad I'm not a more religious guy.  Somewhere in the Bible (but I forget if it's in the Christian or the Jewish part) it says that God desireth not the death of the sinner but that he repent and go forth and sin no more.  I always liked that, except that it seemed to let guys like Nazis get away with murder.  But for a guy like Turner, it seems to be kind of apt.  He seemed more like a loser, a slacker with a gun, and now he's sorry for what he did.  I guess though, bottom line you have to think about the fat guy and his father.  How much hurt this one guy did.  Turner can't get off just because he's sorry now.  He's gone over a line.  Someone will have to pay.  Turner probably won't pay any more than any of the other known war criminals pay.  Somebody will have to pay, though.  It'll be the next GI whose brains spill out on the pavement somewhere in Iraq or Afghanistan - - it won't be perfect justice, by any means, but it'll be the best justice readily available in this fucked-up world.

<<But this guy admitted his crimes. He did them at the behest of a rejuvenated winter soldiers group. He confessed to add credence to the cause. If he is brave enough to brag about his crimes, he should be brave enough to face the music for those same crimes.>>

THAT is a totally irrelevant issue.  Whether he's the bravest of the brave or the most wretched snivelling coward on the entire planet - - what is the difference?  Why is this about Turner when there are hundreds, thousands of Turners and always will be, here, in Canada, in the U.S.A., in Germany, anywhere and everywhere? 

I will tell you something about leadership - - an army is what its leaders make it.  The leaders have the power to discipline, the power to punish.  If they were truly concerned about behaviour like Turner's, they would have the power to eliminate it by setting examples, by constant vigilance for the least trace of that conduct.  If the state of military law did not permit them to exact the kind of punishment necessary to enforce their demands, they would demand those powers and refuse to serve without them.  An officer who admits that he does not have the disciplinary power to enforce his code of military conduct on his own troops is a pathetic and miserable failure.  I believe that those powers already exist, but they are not used.  They are not used because this army is rotten from the top down.  There are no expectations at the top that certain codes of conduct be observed, and this lack of interest percolates all the way down to the platoon and the squad.  THAT'S why you have Turners and Turners' partners and Turner's unit commander (offering prizes for stabbing people to death) and that's why you have the level of atrocities that we can all see (unless of course we don't WANT to see, which is an entirely different matter.)

<<I look forward to his trial.

<<But i suspect there won't be one.>>

Better there isn't - - it's only more infuriating (although terribly instructive) to see the lightness of the sentences compared to the horror of the crimes.  That's probably one of the few places where you can still see the original racism of Amerikkka in all its ugly glory.

<<I suspect as soon as the kleig lights dim, he will recant his confession, claiming he was caught up in the moment and embellished his role.>>

Like any sensible war criminal with a healthy sense of self-preservation.

<<Before fat guys relatives see the video and hunt him down.>>

Wouldn't that be beautiful?  But we have to settle for the next IED casualties, the next helicopter crash.  God works in wond'rous ways His miracles to perform.  But very hard to follow.  What I'd like to know is how He takes care of the leaders, the guys truly responsible for the whole mess.

BT

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Why is this about Turner when there are hundreds, thousands of Turners and always will be, here, in Canada, in the U.S.A., in Germany, anywhere and everywhere?

Quite simple really. Because he is the face of the New Winter Soldiers. He is your poster boy. And by his own admission he is a war criminal.