Author Topic: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama  (Read 2479 times)

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sirs

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Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« on: July 04, 2008, 11:58:06 AM »
That's an understatement.  Have you heard him lately on this issue?  Gads, Iraq couldn't be improving at the worst possible time, for Obama

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By Michael Cooper and Jeff Zeleny Published: July 4, 2008

Senator Barack Obama said he might "refine" his Iraq policies after meeting with military commanders there later this summer. But hours later he held a second news conference to emphasize his commitment to the withdrawing of all combat troops from Iraq within 16 months of taking office.

His two statements, made Thursday in Fargo, North Dakota, reflected how the changing dynamics in Iraq have posed a challenge for Obama, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee. He has been trying to retain flexibility as violence declines there without abandoning one of the central promises of his campaign: that if elected he would end the war.

His remarks came as Republicans - including his all-but-certain Republican rival, Senator John McCain - have been arguing that Obama would most likely change his position on the phased withdrawal. They argue that with violence dropping there, bringing the troops home would risk erasing the fragile gains that have been made.

Obama said at his first news conference that he planned a "thorough assessment" of his Iraq policy when he visits the country later this summer. "I've always said that the pace of withdrawal would be dictated by the safety and security of our troops and the need to maintain stability," he said. "That assessment has not changed. And when I go to Iraq and have a chance to talk to some of the commanders on the ground, I'm sure I'll have more information and will continue to refine my policies."

Obama has long spoken of consulting with commanders in the field as part of his plan for a phased withdrawal from Iraq, but his shift in emphasis in the way he spoke about the situation on Thursday - after weeks in which Republicans and even an outside Iraq-policy adviser to the Obama campaign argued against a withdrawal along the lines he had proposed - fueled speculation that he might not be wedded to his timetable.

"We're going to try this again," Obama said. "Apparently, I wasn't clear enough this morning on my position with respect to the war in Iraq."

The evolving situation in Iraq has, in fact, tested both candidates. McCain, whose support for the unpopular war helped him win the Republican primary, now finds that he must explain his position to a general electorate largely weary of the war. And for Obama, who has been accused recently of changing his positions on campaign finance and a wiretapping law, the suggestion that he was having second thoughts about a central premise of his candidacy holds particular perils.

In his second news conference Thursday, Obama laid out his proposal in less ambiguous terms.

"Let me be as clear as I can be," he said. "I intend to end this war. My first day in office, I will bring the Joint Chiefs of Staff in, and I will give them a new mission, and that is to end this war - responsibly, deliberately, but decisively. And I have seen no information that contradicts the notion that we can bring our troops out safely at a pace of one to two brigades a month, and again, that pace translates into having our combat troops out in 16 months' time."

Obama added that when he had spoken about possibly refining his policies, he was referring to questions about how big a residual force should be left behind to train Iraqi forces and conduct counterterrorism operations - not the overall timeline for withdrawal.

Obama's positioning on this issue has been a critical component of his candidacy from the beginning. He, almost alone among the major candidates, opposed the Iraq war from the start, and that helped him beat a crowded Democratic field. And while he has long said that he would consult the commanders in the field when withdrawing troops, the caveat might have been lost on many Democratic primary voters who supported his call to end the war.

With violence ebbing there, though, he has recently spoken less about withdrawal and increasingly emphasized the failure to achieve political reconciliation in Iraq. And in recent weeks he has spoken more of the economic costs of the Iraq war - and the fact that it limits the ability of the United States to send troops to fight what he considers the nation's primary security threat: Al Qaeda and the Taliban in Afghanistan.

McCain's support for the unpopular Iraq war, meanwhile, could pose problems heading into the general election. To that end, he, too, has shifted his emphasis. After taking heat for saying that he would keep troops in Iraq for up to a hundred years if necessary, he gave a speech this spring suggesting that he would remove most troops by 2013, without offering specifics. He now talks more about withdrawing, as he did over a week ago when he said "we will withdraw, but we will withdraw with victory and honor."

Iraq, of course, remains very dangerous, as a series of lethal attacks in June showed. But fewer Americans were killed there in May than in any month since the conflict began, and violence across the nation has dropped significantly.

Foreign policy experts attribute the reduction to a number of factors, including the defection of Sunni insurgents who are now paid to keep the peace and the cease-fires brokered with various Shiite militias as well as the addition of more troops - the last of whom are leaving the country this month - and adoption of a counter-insurgency strategy.

Some foreign policy experts say that both candidates may have to adjust their stances once in office - McCain, because strains on the military may make it impossible to station as many troops there for as long as he likes, and Obama, because the threat of backsliding may force him to slow the pace of withdrawal.

Obama said that under his plan, there would still be combat troops in Iraq in 2010, seven years after the war began. And he questioned the premise that the recent gains could complicate the withdrawal.

"Those are the same folks who said that we can't pull troops out because things are too violent," he said. "Now that the violence has subsided, you can't pull troops out because things have improved. It's a Catch-22."


Can we say "flip Flop"?  I knew you could
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2008, 12:13:39 PM »
<<They argue that with violence dropping there, bringing the troops home would risk erasing the fragile gains that have been made.   .  .

<<"Those are the same folks who said that we can't pull troops out because things are too violent," he said. "Now that the violence has subsided, you can't pull troops out because things have improved. It's a Catch-22.">>

heh - heh - heh.  EXACTLY.

Another way of saying this is that the internal conflicts in Iraq will persist whether any one side or the other happens to be temporarily lying low or not.  In other words, the "progress" that every right-wing jackass has been braying about recently is purely illusory.  People are waiting and biding their time.  Since all of the antagonists except the Americans happen to LIVE there, there is no limit to how long they can wait.  For the Americans, the clock is always ticking.

sirs

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2008, 12:25:19 PM »
It was truely hillarious listening to Obama answer questions from reporters yesterday.  That tightrope he was walking was as thin as a fabric thread.  All of a sudden, the rhetoric of a year ago, where he was desively proclaiming, to thundering appluase, his pending pulling of all U.S. troops by the end of 2009 appears to have become severely ............modified.  With the real hillarity in his proclaiming how he's never changed his position on this issue

 :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2008, 12:40:22 PM »
"Those are the same folks who said that we can't pull troops out because things are too violent," he said. "Now that the violence has subsided, you can't pull troops out because things have improved. It's a Catch-22."

I'm not seeing the problem Sirs. Where is Obama wrong on this?

The US Army is an absolute mess. Officers make O-3 and even 0-4 at alarming rates simply to fill the gaps, not because they are qualified for the promotion. There are fresh 2nd lueys in command of companies. Some units don't even have an officer.

Meanwhile, politicians debate whether it is too violent to leave Iraq or too peaceful to leave. I think Obama is right in this case, it is a Catch-22. Iraq is a shithole and the people making out like bandits are KBR.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2008, 01:17:51 PM »
Another way of saying this is that the internal conflicts in Iraq will persist whether any one side or the other happens to be temporarily lying low or not.  In other words, the "progress" that every right-wing jackass has been braying about recently is purely illusory.  People are waiting and biding their time.  Since all of the antagonists except the Americans happen to LIVE there, there is no limit to how long they can wait.  For the Americans, the clock is always ticking.

===============================================
Precisely true. Iranians aren't leaving, Shiites are not going to become peaceful Jehovah's Witnesses or even less bellicose Baptists.
That embassy is so huge it will require an army just to keep it clean.

The real reason the US oligarchy  wants the troops to stay is to sell that oil. To us, or whomever, at the highest price possible.

There is nothing in staying in Iraq for the average American except for fewer dead, maimed and insane veterans and a lower national debt.

Withdrawal within a couple of years seems to be essential to the value of the dollar. No one can fight a war on credit and not suffer economically.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2008, 01:19:49 PM »
The problem Js, is that he has claimed the "buck stops with him".  He has pledged that he would "listen" to his commanders, but hat they will be given a new mission, that of getting out of Iraq, with the campaign pledge made that in 2009 he will end the war....basically giving his die hard constituents a time table of about 16months.  He has said that as CnC, he'd listen to his commanders and their tactics, but that those tactics would be consistent with the new mission he had given them, getting out of Iraq.

Not to mention he made it clear the surge would never work.  Now that events on the ground have made it clear that the surge helped considerably (the changing dynamics), it has apparently required a change in his war rhetoric & pledges.

As I said, the reporters were actually pretty impressive with their questioning, over the last 2 days, and it's apparent in his answers how he's decidedly changed his Iraq position, compared to just a year ago.  So yea, he can spin it and try to claim he's had to modify it to deal with the so-called Can't leave when its bad, can't leave when it's good line, or that this is the McCain camp infiltrating the media with this notion he's changed his position, but when you actually listen to HIM then vs now, it's transparent in the "new direction" he's taken
« Last Edit: July 04, 2008, 02:00:20 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2008, 01:29:43 PM »
Not to mention he made it clear the surge would never work.  Now that events on the ground have made it clear that the surge helped considerably (the changing dynamics), it has apparently required a change in his war rhetoric & pledges.


==============================
If the surge has really "worked", then the Iraqis can defend themselves and the US can leave. But they can't and so the US can't leave. This is unfolding like the continuous crap we were fed about Vietnam. You rightwingers still eat any crap you are fed. A few of you are still munching on how the Tet Offensive was a defeat for Vietnam.

But the surge has not worked in that sense. It has only reduced the level of violence. What seems to have happened is that those who violently opposed the US have seen no benefit in continuing the violence now, as they know that sooner or later, the US will reduce its troop strength and they can attack or otherwise cause their opponents to yield some or all power to them. This may or not be possible, but it is probable. The Iraqi police are utterly corrupt and incompetent, and it is they who must maintain order, not the Army.

Again, the United States cannot win an Iraqi Civil War. It is insane to believe that this is possible.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2008, 01:41:28 PM »
a) it's no longer even remotely a civil war.  I can't recall the last time that tern was used on the MSM news networks

b) the surge has been working precisly as it was designed to, to give Iraqi diplomats a change to come to compromises, to which they have on many levels.  Nearly all the Iraqi Benchmarks have been accomplished, in the process, and violence is significantly down thru-out the country

c) when the iraqis have achieved their necessary level of internal security, we can leave.  And only THEY and our commanders on the ground know when that point has been reached.
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2008, 04:20:55 PM »
a) it's no longer even remotely a civil war.  I can't recall the last time that tern was used on the MSM news networks

b) the surge has been working precisly as it was designed to, to give Iraqi diplomats a change to come to compromises, to which they have on many levels.  Nearly all the Iraqi Benchmarks have been accomplished, in the process, and violence is significantly down thru-out the country

c) when the iraqis have achieved their necessary level of internal security, we can leave.  And only THEY and our commanders on the ground know when that point has been reached.

a) Semantics. Tell the Iraqis who are still fighting that there is no civil war (or whatever you wish to call it). Our soldiers on convoys are given the suggestion of taking pellet guns with them to keep Iraqi children away as there have been convoys exploded by children throwing bombs. You may call it what you like Sirs, but it is still very much a war.

b) Politics. Many Iraqis still do not have the basic necessities of electricity, water, schools, and hospitals. Lowering violence is nice, but in the past it has only been temporary. Why is it permanent now? If I were an Iraqi I'd simply be waiting for a massive flare up again.

c) An open-ended question. Saddam had achieved such "internal-security" is that what victory looks like? Is that why we went to Iraq?

This is my dilemma over Iraq. I honestly don't see McCain or Obama providing very good answers to the questions. We're sending good people there to die. We've destroyed the basic functioning of the US Army. What have we accomplished? Is our presence there worth the price? We need better answers from both our politicians and the media.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Michael Tee

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2008, 04:32:44 PM »
This is one of the most truly hilarious threads I have been reading recently.  Talk about "impaled on the horns of a dilemma!!"

"The surge is working, 15 out of 18 benchmarks have been met."
"Great!  Now we can bring the troops home."
"Well, no, this is the wrong time to bring them home now that the surge is working."

There is NO WAY that the War Party can spin its way out of this one.  "It is just impossible from any perspective save that of the terminally insane.

Now sirs and the others are scrambling in all directions - - only THEY [Iraqi pols] and our commanders on the ground can say when we leave.  Well, THEY will not survive six weeks if the U.S. pulls out and everyone seems to know that at some level; as for the U.S. commanders on the ground, which one wants to declare failure and say he can't whip a third-rate Third World nation with a population of only 23 million?  I think hell's gonna freeze over first. 

This must be a historical first, when the President's power and the responsibility that goes with that power to declare war or make peace have been delegated to his commanders in the field and to a bunch of Iraqi politicians.  What leadership!!  Absolutely AMAZING!  The buck stops . . .  THERE.

Anyone who at this point can't see through the War Party's smoke-and-mirrors games and tricks is just being partisan.  There's no rhyme or reason in their arguments.  Their spinning has now propelled them from the ridiculous to the absurd.

sirs

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2008, 04:45:59 PM »
And all the while Tee & Js misdirect the topic, there's Obama, spinning his wheels faster than a funny car, trying to explain his way out of this one.

I have to admit, it's fun to watch him fumble in his strength...that of articulating.  Then again, typical politican, full of vim & vigor, while devoid of many specifics.  Then when caught on some specific "x" going south, quickly try to spin their way into trying to claim how they always meant "y" 
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2008, 05:36:09 PM »
What I'm waiting for is the War Party's reconciliation of their latest mantra, "Can't get out  now that the violence is way down" with their former mantra "Can't get out now when the violence is way up."

I thought Obama had it pretty well nailed as a "Catch 22" argument for indefinite occupation.  And I think that's how anyone with a modicum of common sense will have to see it.  Obama's mistake, if he made one, was trying to jump into bed with the War Party without thinking things through.  He didn't HAVE to make that move and now he's gotta back out of it.  Sure it'll be bad for his image but not as bad as staying in bed with them and having to keep drinking their Kool-Aid.

sirs

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2008, 05:45:11 PM »
And ironically, I thought the reporters had pretty well nailed Obama in his seriously flawed tight rope rhetoric walk of wanting it both ways.  I am indeed pleasantly surprised given their generally hyperbolic infatuation with him
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2008, 07:14:30 PM »
It is a civil war because it is a fight between various factions of Iraq, Sunni, Shiite, Kurd, over who will run Iraq and how the resources are to be divided. Whether of not it is a civil war is not determined by American broadcast announcers, and even less by whether sirs has heard them say it is not a civil war.

The US oligarchy mandated that they build an embassy in Baghdad bigger than the frigging Vatican City. Why, in a country of only 22 million? There are lots more Irish, Italians, British, French, German, Polish and probably even Norwegian Americans with relatives to provide visas for and such.

Why did they do this?

They intend to stay in force for a very, very long time. They intend that the US will be the shadow government of Iraq, just as they were in Vietnam.

There is only one way to put an end to this idiocy, and that is to throw the goddamned piece of shit asshole Republicans out of power.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Changing dynamics in Iraq pose challenge for Obama
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2008, 07:17:35 PM »
<<And ironically, I thought the reporters had pretty well nailed Obama in his seriously flawed tight rope rhetoric walk of wanting it both ways. >>

There's nothing ironic there.  The reporters DID nail Obama, and rightfully so, on his ridiculous flip-flop.  He's a huge disappointment to me and others and the reporters were right not to give him a pass.  All I'm really saying is that the pasting he'll get for flip-flopping is nothing compared to the pasting he'll get in the end from selling out.  Someone today or yesterday advised Obama to get out the tape of Kerry's concession speech to remind him of what happens to Democratic "leaders" who try to please  both the left wing of their party and the mythical "centre" of America.