Author Topic: The Summer of Love  (Read 36422 times)

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Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #165 on: July 21, 2008, 06:37:58 PM »
How do you say that Denmark is holding off invasion ?


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If there were an attempt to invade Denmark by anyone outside the EC, the EC would intervene. No member of the EC would invade Denmark.

No one has invaded Denmark (or Finland, or Sweden) since WWII. I hard;ly think the US is the major preventative factor.

The fact that Denmark could not prevent by itself alone an armed invasion from a much larger country does not mean that Denmark is not great.

Is Hulk Hogan greater than Nelson Mandela? Is "The Rock" greater than Woody Allen?




Woody Allen? Is that Denmark?If I were Denmark I would not stand for that.

Europe spends so much less on defense than the US that it doesn't amount to half , this is a longstanding discrepancy that we really should never have allowed. All that spending that we spend so that they don't have to is a direct subsidy on everything that Europe does spend its own money on.

Denmark was invaded every now and then like all the rest of Europe  , Western Europe stopped invading each other coincident with the formation of NATO. In NATO -free Eastern Europe on the other hand ,Prague failed to spring. Their Soviets ruled with a heavy hand and were practically in a permanent state of invading.

If the West had seemed to be weak I think Stalin would have taken more territory , so might Kruchev or Brezhnev , we can only guess based on what they did where they could get away with it.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #166 on: July 21, 2008, 06:43:12 PM »
Military Power has a proper role , I will let you disccuss what this role should be even though you have an abysmal ignorance on the subject.

If you think that military power equates to greatness, then it is you whose ignorance is abysmal.

The use for military power is defense. The Iraq was was offense. No American in the US was threatened by any Iraqi. Not even close.


If the US did not have the power to invade Iraq, that would have been a good thing, because the war has resulted in the buggering of the dollar, the displacement of over a million Iraqis, and the death of over 3000 Americans. It has made the Persian Gulf a dangerous place, and that has resulted in the rise in the price for oil, and because of this, the rise in the price for everything else.

Inflation due to the incompetence, stubbornness and warmongering of Juniorbush is stealing money from everyone's pockets. Only the few  American companies that have figured out how to steal money in Iraq have benefitted.

A gun can be a useful tool, but not when one uses it to blow his own toes off, just because a few thieves that are selling bullets are making a profit from it.

No matter how hard one tries, no one can be harmed by learning a language. Not even an utterly useless one, like Klingon.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #167 on: July 21, 2008, 06:47:27 PM »

But, to be honest, I'd cede you "greatness" if you'd cede morality. It is the bewildering obfuscation of the two that amazes me most.

I think we are discussing Greatness.

I take your surrender without offering any surrender in return.

Morality is indeed a seaprate issue and deserves a seaprate discussion , I suggest you start a 'nother thread and I can try to out argue you on that too.

_JS

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #168 on: July 21, 2008, 06:59:25 PM »

But, to be honest, I'd cede you "greatness" if you'd cede morality. It is the bewildering obfuscation of the two that amazes me most.

I think we are discussing Greatness.

I take your surrender without offering any surrender in return.

Morality is indeed a seaprate issue and deserves a seaprate discussion , I suggest you start a 'nother thread and I can try to out argue you on that too.

You've "out-argued" no one, except perhaps in your mind.

Seriously, your view of greatness is military spending full stop. That isn't an argument...it is a bullet point (no pun intended). After nuclear armament, what was the point of Western European nations creating massive armies?

Besides, don't be too arrogant. That armor on the M1 is British. That 120mm cannon is German. That M16 machine gun is a piece of garbage, soldiers still curse Robert McNamara for that one.

And yes, American hegemony protected a number of nations in Europe and Asia...but it isn't as if the United States did so out of kindness. It was to serve American imperial interests. You can't have it both ways. You bitch and moan about underspending on defense by other countries, but proclaim the greatness of American military projection. Janus would be proud at the two-face view you present.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #169 on: July 21, 2008, 07:04:29 PM »
The US forced Japan to write the lack of a serious army into their constitution, and then they bitched because Japan does not have an adequate army. 

The US did not want Germany to have a serious army, and they sent troops to Germany for its defense. The Germans even pay for the cost of the US troops being in Germany.

Once the Germans and Japanese had demonstrated that they could build an effective military, they were prevented for having one, and then guys like you want to kick them for it.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #170 on: July 21, 2008, 07:05:59 PM »
Military Power has a proper role , I will let you disccuss what this role should be even though you have an abysmal ignorance on the subject.

If you think that military power equates to greatness, then it is you whose ignorance is abysmal.

The use for military power is defense. The Iraq was was offense. No American in the US was threatened by any Iraqi. Not even close.


If the US did not have the power to invade Iraq, that would have been a good thing, because the war has resulted in the buggering of the dollar, the displacement of over a million Iraqis, and the death of over 3000 Americans. It has made the Persian Gulf a dangerous place, and that has resulted in the rise in the price for oil, and because of this, the rise in the price for everything else.

Inflation due to the incompetence, stubbornness and warmongering of Juniorbush is stealing money from everyone's pockets. Only the few  American companies that have figured out how to steal money in Iraq have benefitted.

A gun can be a useful tool, but not when one uses it to blow his own toes off, just because a few thieves that are selling bullets are making a profit from it.

No matter how hard one tries, no one can be harmed by learning a language. Not even an utterly useless one, like Klingon.

You can point out to me if you will the "great" but Weak if you please , but _JS has just made an interesting point, that "great" and "Moral" should not be confused , I accept this point as true  , I think the USA is "great" and in some respects "moral" tho I have some complaints on the Morality of some of the stuff that has been happening .

To compare Apples to apples lets compare the great to the great in terms of Morality.

During our lifetimes there have been three superpowers the US the USSR and China.

Even though China still has a smaller economy than Japan , we are discussing greatness and even if military power is all they have it is not inconsiderable on that account alone.

Lets compare the Marshal plan to the scouring of Eastern Europe with all the spoils being shipped to the USSR includeing whole factorys . Without getting into whether the USSR had a right to those spoils , were they MORE moral to be takeing than giveing?

China might be helpfull to other nations in the future when they can afford it , time will tell.

If the USA did not have the power to invade Iraq Saddam Hussein would possess Kuait , Iraq and probly a chunk of Iran , why not think this? That is exactlyu what he was trying to acheive.

By now Saddam Hussein would be bombarding Tel Aviv  quite often , or were Dr. Bulls cannons going to be turned around?

Without our interference the swamps at the Euphraties would have all been drained and the Kurds would have all been killed.

When well prepared Saddam would have chosen to either invade Saudi Arabia or Iran , whichever looked weaker at the time , without the freindship of the US how strong would Saudi Arabia really look?

_JS

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #171 on: July 21, 2008, 07:12:17 PM »
Quote
Lets compare the Marshal plan to the scouring of Eastern Europe with all the spoils being shipped to the USSR includeing whole factorys . Without getting into whether the USSR had a right to those spoils , were they MORE moral to be takeing than giveing?

The USSR put FAR more resources into the DDR than it ever received. The United States also took many things from Germany, especially scientific knowledge.

This is a road you may not wish to go down. The Marshall Plan was a great idea, but the United States has done a hell of a lot of taking. The USSR wasn't the only one to loot other nations during the Cold War. You might want to be careful before you pull that trigger, I doubt that you're prepared for that discussion.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #172 on: July 21, 2008, 07:24:44 PM »

But, to be honest, I'd cede you "greatness" if you'd cede morality. It is the bewildering obfuscation of the two that amazes me most.

I think we are discussing Greatness.

I take your surrender without offering any surrender in return.

Morality is indeed a seaprate issue and deserves a seaprate discussion , I suggest you start a 'nother thread and I can try to out argue you on that too.

You've "out-argued" no one, except perhaps in your mind.
That is where it counts.
Quote
Seriously, your view of greatness is military spending full stop. That isn't an argument...it is a bullet point (no pun intended). After nuclear armament, what was the point of Western European nations creating massive armies?
That was a choice they made , if they had built massive armies they would not have needed the USA. Observe France .
Quote
Besides, don't be too arrogant. That armor on the M1 is British. That 120mm cannon is German. That M16 machine gun is a piece of garbage, soldiers still curse Robert McNamara for that one.
Yes we have some very good friends , and we learned something from occasions when we shared and developed RADAR in cooperation with the British and produced the worlds best Radar , but refused to share on Torpedoes and had to struggle with one of the worlds poorest torpedoes for a couple of years. In more Modern times we still struggle with provincialism unless the weapon is really much better than what we can produce , note the Harrier is originally British .
Quote

And yes, American hegemony protected a number of nations in Europe and Asia...
Thank you that was my point.
Quote
but it isn't as if the United States did so out of kindness. It was to serve American imperial interests. You can't have it both ways.
Oh ? What is the feature that makes some of these things mutually exclusive?
Quote


You bitch and moan about underspending on defense by other countries, but proclaim the greatness of American military projection. Janus would be proud at the two-face view you present.
I think you are trying to point out a dichotomy but I don't see it . If Europe had spent more no Defense all of these years they might have built a bit less infrastructure and maintained a bit less social services , but where would have this have hurt us? WE were willing to spend a lot on Europe when Europe was crippled in the aftermath of WWII , we tapered this off as they recovered but we kept a large garrison there as a security blanket for them . I think they would have been even more secure if they had been preparing their own defense and allowing us to keep less there(see again France) but they seemed to enjoy the support , the security and the spending.

Yes, I think Europe has recovered splendidly and we can be proud of the part we played.

Europe is on its way to becomeing the greatest Economy of the planet . That is a measure of greatness we have been accustomed to holding without arguement for decades . But I don't think I should greive when my neighbors prosper , nor should the USA be harmed by the progress of its nation freinds.

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #173 on: July 21, 2008, 07:26:51 PM »
Quote
Lets compare the Marshal plan to the scouring of Eastern Europe with all the spoils being shipped to the USSR includeing whole factorys . Without getting into whether the USSR had a right to those spoils , were they MORE moral to be takeing than giveing?

The USSR put FAR more resources into the DDR than it ever received. The United States also took many things from Germany, especially scientific knowledge.

This is a road you may not wish to go down. The Marshall Plan was a great idea, but the United States has done a hell of a lot of taking. The USSR wasn't the only one to loot other nations during the Cold War. You might want to be careful before you pull that trigger, I doubt that you're prepared for that discussion.


Go on ahead , don't bother to warn me .

Do you know where we can find some reliable figures on the subject?

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #174 on: July 21, 2008, 07:33:13 PM »
The US forced Japan to write the lack of a serious army into their constitution, and then they bitched because Japan does not have an adequate army. 

The US did not want Germany to have a serious army, and they sent troops to Germany for its defense. The Germans even pay for the cost of the US troops being in Germany.

Once the Germans and Japanese had demonstrated that they could build an effective military, they were prevented for having one, and then guys like you want to kick them for it.



That is funny isn't it?

Of course two generations seaprate the two attitudes , we have grown accustomed to a very capitolist and harmless Japan , its empire now is commercial and not imperial.

Japan has been free for some time to make corrections to its Constitution , but should it?

Should they accept the provision that only 1% of their nation al budget should be spent on defense as McArther decreed or , should they upgrade in prepration for the comeing disputes ?

What are the disputes that Japan is soon prone to?  Will they be able to depend on the US to assist ?

If they can depend on us and consider that enough , they can build some neat airports and bridges with the money , instead of battleships.

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #175 on: July 21, 2008, 07:43:30 PM »
That M16 machine gun is a piece of garbage, soldiers still curse Robert McNamara for that one.




If you have some AR-15s or M-16s (the leagal veriety please) that you want to sell , we should talk some turkey.

The M16 is really a great weapon system , so easy to train on and use that we can make soldiers of petit women.

If we had stuck with the M-14 there would be no question of the tiny soldier.

Lately we have sometimes been fighting troops on open country who are armed with AK-47s in this circumstance the much greater effective range of the M-16 (M-4) has been a good advantage. In the urban setting the cheapness and availibliity of the AK-47 overcomes all disadvantages by being plentyfull and reliable.

A few of our soldiers have taken up the M-14 for the sheer penatrating power , the range and the stopping power. Most still rather have the M-16 which alows them to carry m,any more rounds of Ammo.

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #176 on: July 21, 2008, 07:59:22 PM »
Capitolism is not failing in any respect , except in respects that every alternitive is also failing.


Of course it is and I could easily point out many more.

You and Sirs fall into the trap that you believe your own period of history is the zenith of mankind.

No I don't.

I don't know how you could possibly get such an impression, I look forward to developments in every feild such that Future shock will become supersonic future shock wave, why not ? We are in the cusp of change all of the time it behooves us to lobby for positive changes when that is possible and to cope with negative changes when they are necessacery.

The worlds imagind by Arther C Clark are acheveable , with a lot of work , a little luck and God willing.

We are in a process , but your calling Capitalism a failure flys in the face of all evidence, and I do mean all of it.

Progress happens best in Capitolist a environment , conservation of nature happens best in a democratic and capitolist environment , good treatment of the common man happens best in a democratic , modified capitolist system , where the little guy has enough clout to look after himself a bit , but the moovers and shakers , visionarys and highly productive people are not shackled unneedfully.

Communism has seen its apex , it was a disaster in environmental damage , bad treatment of the common man and corruption of the very powerfull not least was the supression of the creative.

Nostalgia for the ultimate socialist state is reactionary and practicly Ludditeism.

Of course, if what you said was really true then you could refute at least some of it I'd imagine. But you simply toss on insults at the end. This is typical, really.

Good treatment of the "common man?" This coming from someone who claims that class consciousness would be "dangerous" and "very bad." I'll take that with a grain of salt for certain.


What do you get from class consciousness more than starting fights?

Class consciousness looks like a curse to me, which class would Jesus persicute?


Quote
"if what you said was really true then you could refute at least some of it I'd imagine.

What?  I don't need to refute my own assertions, I assert that the common man is better of in the USA than elesewhere and the common man seems to agree with me by comeing here to live many times more often than he leaves here to live elesewhere.

Plane

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #177 on: July 21, 2008, 08:04:18 PM »

Seriously, your view of greatness is military spending full stop. That isn't an argument...it is a bullet point (no pun intended). After nuclear armament, what was the point of Western European nations creating massive armies?


We are also great in arts and science and freedom , but being militarily powerfull allows us to make our choices for ourselves and so facilitates our freedom to become great in any respect we care to.

In Europe a portion of their greatness is borrowed , we have been supporting them and allowing them to spend much less on arms than we do , much much less.

Yes our Umbrella has been a very grand influence on the development of Europe as it is , should we be proud or apoloogetic?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #178 on: July 21, 2008, 08:08:15 PM »

If they can depend on us and consider that enough , they can build some neat airports and bridges with the money , instead of battleships.

==========================
I suggest that anyone who builds a battleship these days, is a moron. Battleships are useful only as targets for missiles and bombs, after which they excel as fun breeding grounds for fish.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

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Re: The Summer of Love
« Reply #179 on: July 21, 2008, 08:15:40 PM »
Class consciousness looks like a curse to me, which class would Jesus persicute?

What?  I don't need to refute my own assertions, I assert that the common man is better of in the USA than elesewhere and the common man seems to agree with me by comeing here to live many times more often than he leaves here to live elesewhere.

These are some of my favorites.

Jesus would not persecute any class, which is why Class Consciousness is important. It leads to a classless society. Unlike Capitalism, which most definitely does not lead to a classless society.

No one asked you to refute yourself. I asked you to refute what I had said, but you have no bothered to try.

The immigration point is an oldie, but a goodie. It is also a steaming pile of horse shit.

The countries with the largest foreign population inflow per capita: (from http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/imm_for_pop_inf_percap-foreign-population-inflow-per-capita)

    #1       Luxembourg:      23.0488 thousand per 1 million p      
    #2      Switzerland:    11.6705 thousand per 1 million p     
    #3      New Zealand:    9.61586 thousand per 1 million p     
    #4      Austria:    8.06353 thousand per 1 million p     
    #5      Germany:    7.87083 thousand per 1 million p     
    #6      Belgium:    6.61907 thousand per 1 million p     
    #7      Norway:    6.05269 thousand per 1 million p     
    #8      Ireland:    6.001 thousand per 1 million p     
    #9      Netherlands:    5.57079 thousand per 1 million p     
    #10      United Kingdom:    4.77821 thousand per 1 million p     
    #11      Italy:    4.67274 thousand per 1 million p     
    #12      Sweden:    3.75472 thousand per 1 million p     
    #13      Japan:    2.71392 thousand per 1 million p     
    #14      France:    1.96683 thousand per 1 million p     
    #15      Finland:    1.74229 thousand per 1 million p     
    #16      Portugal:    1.50483 thousand per 1 million p     
    #17      Czech Republic:    0.410116 thousand per 1 million p

Here is another list that you may like better. Immigrants as a percentage of State Population. We rank #40, just behind Moldova.

I suppose by your definition, Qatar is the greatest nation on Earth for the common man.  ::)


I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.