Author Topic: Dang , a two-fer day  (Read 3052 times)

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hnumpah

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Dang , a two-fer day
« on: August 02, 2008, 09:51:03 AM »
As I said before, I find myself agreeing with Charley quite a bit these days.


The Republic, Slip-Sliding Away
by Charley Reese

Despite all the blather about democracy, we did not invent it, do not support it and have, during the recent administration, become less democratic than we were before.

We are and always have been too large a country for a true democracy. That's why the Founding Fathers created a republic. In a true democracy, the people would decide practically all the issues. In a republic, the people delegate that power to elected representatives who serve for a fixed term.

A republic is a good form of government provided the people pay attention, fairly judge the performance of their elected officials and boot 'em out of office when they don't cut the mustard. It is a good form of government provided the best people, not the worst, offer themselves to serve in public office.

Our government really does not support democracy, except rhetorically. When the Palestinians had a free and fair election and chose Hamas members to man their government, we refused to recognize the new government. Apparently, the Bush administration's definition of a free election is one that provides the results the president wants.

Most of our "allies" are far from democratic. Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states are all authoritarian in one form or another. Ironically, Iran does have an elected government, but there again, it's one Bush doesn't like. Poor Hugo Chavez in Venezuela has been elected and re-elected, but still gets called a tyrant by Bush's step-and-fetch-its. China, which is a stern one-party dictatorship, seems to find our favor.

I'd say that if you are a dictator seeking the favor of the United States, you must offer financial incentives, be a supporter of Israel or volunteer for lap-dog status.

If you dare indicate that you are interested in the welfare of your own people and your own nation, you are likely to end up on the president's bathroom list. This basic rule of foreign policy doesn't seem to change regardless of which party occupies the White House.

It also should be noted that people keep insisting that Iran give up weapons it doesn't have while remaining dead silent about the nuclear weapons Israel does have. If our government were truly interested in nuclear nonproliferation, it would support a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East that includes Israel and would not be making deals to increase the nuclear capability of India.

So, the second rule of American foreign policy is that hypocrisy and expedience trump principles.

Internally, we have become decisively less democratic. The present administration has a bad habit of questioning the patriotism and loyalty of people who disagree with it. It spies on everybody without any judicial restraint. It has riddled the government with partisans who are incompetent. It is the most secretive administration in American history. It lies like a drunken fisherman. It puts people in jail and holds them incommunicado without charges. It tortures people. It is contemptuous of the Constitution and especially of the principle of checks and balances.

Congress is too cowardly to do it, but George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are a lot more likely to deserve impeachment than Bill Clinton was. Clinton lied about his private sexual peccadillos, while the Bush administration seems to lie about everything. Clinton lied to prevent a war with Hillary, while the Bush mob lied to get us into a war in Iraq. A big difference, I'd say.

Thomas Jefferson did not believe that one generation had the right to burden another with debt. Our $9 trillion federal debt is a burden on generations too numerous to count. This is almost as serious a civic sin as lying our way into a war.

We seem to be following the familiar path of history where republics slide into empire and eventually a fascist dictatorship. Too bad that freedom, like a good wife, is most appreciated in its absence.
 
via antiwar.com
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2008, 09:59:37 AM »
This is almost as serious a civic sin as lying our way into a war.


=========================================
Oh nooooooo!
Now watch sirs jump in to say that this is not so, for the 291st time, despite having convinced no one.

I must say, I agree. The US never was very democratic and is getting less so.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2008, 06:31:33 PM »
Quote
"The present administration has a bad habit of questioning the patriotism and loyalty of people who disagree with it."


Any example of this one?

sirs

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2008, 08:07:41 PM »
I'll wait patiently too.  It seems for some, the mere criticising or anyone criticising the war or Bush is tantamount to being called unpatriotic.  It's not, but the intellectual dishonesty still abounds with this effort
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2008, 08:53:33 PM »
This is almost as serious a civic sin as lying our way into a war.


=========================================
Oh nooooooo!
Now watch sirs jump in to say that this is not so, for the 291st time, despite having convinced no one.

I must say, I agree. The US never was very democratic and is getting less so.

We could become more democratic by protecting the rights of minoritys and small states less , would that be good?

hnumpah

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2008, 11:55:29 PM »
Quote
Any example of this one?

Try the claims that setting a timeline for the withdrawal from Iraq would only help the enemy, and that anyone who who supported that idea was only in favor of aiding the enemy. Try that one for starters.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

BT

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2008, 12:04:45 AM »
Quote
Try the claims that setting a timeline for the withdrawal from Iraq would only help the enemy

Is it not true that setting a date certain for withdrawal would be helpful information for a foe?


hnumpah

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 12:26:10 AM »
Would it? That hasn't been proven.

And I believe the response is valid. The administration has constantly berated anyone who speaks up in favor of setting up a time line as somehow catering to the enemy. Why accuse those who have different opinions of somehow wanting to help the enemy? Because that is the way this administration operates.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

BT

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2008, 12:27:42 AM »
If you were planning a burglary would it be useful to know the timing of patrols?


hnumpah

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2008, 12:30:31 AM »
Would you demonize the cops for publishing a schedule?
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Plane

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2008, 12:34:02 AM »
Would you demonize the cops for publishing a schedule?

YES!

Hey Cops, why did yu tell the whole town you would check this neighborhood at ten oclock and finish by twelve?

BT

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2008, 12:36:54 AM »
Quote
The administration has constantly berated anyone who speaks up in favor of setting up a time line as somehow catering to the enemy. Why accuse those who have different opinions of somehow wanting to help the enemy? Because that is the way this administration operates.

Not just the administration. Many posters on this board were against any kind of cut and run time table. Fact is no matter the motivation of those who suggested redeployment, the fact that the insurgents or al Queda or al-sadr simply had to withdraw to a hidey hole for six months or a year and then they would be free to operate would seem to me to be very valuable information.

If i were them i would use the time to re-arm, heal, train, recruit and redeploy for the inevitable civil war to follow.





BT

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2008, 12:39:48 AM »
Would you demonize the cops for publishing a schedule?

I would certainly question the wisdom of publishing a schedule and advise against it.

hnumpah

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2008, 12:48:00 AM »
We can take a basic recruit, get them through basic training and basic infantryman's school in what, less than a year? We have had over five years now to get an Iraqi army trained and in the field to take responsibility for their own defense. This after the dumbass move of firing pretty much their entire army and sending them home to start with. Still, they've had plenty of time to get their own troops on the ground and up to speed. Sure, I know they're getting there, they're finally starting to lead their own patrols, take control of their own AO's, but these are things they should have done two or three years ago. We could have then told the Iraqi government, as I and others said then, all right, we're training you, we're equipping you, we're getting your army on the ground for you, but in X months time, we are pulling our troops out of the field and turning the day to day operations over to you. Now note that our troops are going to have to take time to get their gear together, cleaned up and inventoried, they're not all going to get on a plane that same day and come home. If the Iraqis ran into problems and asked for help, we could have sent reinforcements out to help them out. If they didn't run into problems they couldn't handle, we could begin bringing troops home.

The point, however, is, and remains, despite your efforts to sidetrack me, that this administration has taken the line that anyone who speaks out for setting such a timeline is somehow in favor of aiding the enemy.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

hnumpah

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Re: Dang , a two-fer day
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2008, 12:52:02 AM »
Quote
Many posters on this board were against any kind of cut and run time table.

And I recall accusations of the same sort I heard from the administration, even when others tried to explain, just as I just did, that we did not mean to just say hey, in six months we're outta here.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016