Author Topic: Virtue  (Read 1204 times)

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BT

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Virtue
« on: October 31, 2008, 10:22:56 PM »
    "John McCain and Sarah Palin they call this socialistic. You know I dont know when, when they decided they wanted to make a virtue out of selfishness." Obama  Sarasota FL

Generosity is not being generous when it is forced.

Does he not get that?


crocat

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2008, 10:22:07 AM »
   "John McCain and Sarah Palin they call this socialistic. You know I dont know when, when they decided they wanted to make a virtue out of selfishness." Obama  Sarasota FL

Generosity is not being generous when it is forced.

Does he not get that?



Probably not.  Especially since he thinks giving away your money is "him" being generous.

Michael Tee

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2008, 11:26:30 AM »
<<Probably not.  Especially since he thinks giving away your money is "him" being generous.>>

That's funny, I thought it was more a case of him forcing everyone to do the right thing, but then I don't seem to have the advantage that you do of reading his mind.

crocat

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2008, 11:59:31 AM »
<<Probably not.&nbsp; Especially since he thinks giving away your money is "him" being generous.>>

That's funny, I thought it was more a case of him forcing everyone to do the right thing, but then I don't seem to have the advantage that you do of reading his mind.

Ha ha ha....when all other logic fails accuse me of being a mind reader.

But why would you really want to change this...



"Five percent of Americans pay over half the income taxes in this country. Forty percent of Americans pay no income taxes at all."
Fred Thompson on Wednesday, December 12th, 2007 in debate in Johnston, Iowa

Thompson's tax numbers add up

Fred Thompson, in arguing that the tax cuts of the Bush administration should be renewed, said that 5 percent of Americans pay over half the income taxes in this country, and that 40 percent of Americans pay no income taxes at all.

Both figures are true.

The top 5 percent of all payers do pay more than half the income tax. They pay about 59.2 percent of all individual income tax, according to an analysis by the Tax Policy Center, a nonpartisan institute run jointly by the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution.

Thompson also said that 40 percent of Americans pay no income tax. This claim is supported by the Tax Foundation, a nonpartisan tax research group that promotes transparency in the tax code and economic growth.

There's a small caveat to the 40 percent number — it includes nonfilers, typically taxpayers who don't have to file returns because their incomes are too low. It's logical to assume that most nonfilers don't pay income taxes, but it's possible that some did if they had income taxes withheld by an employer. This is probably a very small number, because people with low incomes have an economic incentive to file a return and get a refund.

The U.S. income tax system is progressive, which means that rates increase as income increases. Given that structure, it makes sense that people with higher incomes pay more taxes, and people with low incomes might pay no tax at all. Thompson's numbers are on the money, and we rate them True.

I have to wonder what all the fuss is about if 4% pay more than HALF the taxes.... looks to me like they took the big hit..

Obama did ok in 2006  http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/files/obama_2006_tax_return.pdf    got him a 40G refund and excuse me while I laugh at his 'charitable donations'


Check out page 21...

CARE 21,000
Congressional Black Caucus 13,107
Misc. Recognized Charities 4,700
Munta Dance Troup   5,000
Trinity United Church of Christ 22,500

Care supports 71 countries.... but  http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2008/January/08_nsd_021.html

Hilary had a list of exceptions that she posted when she was campaigning against him but they are no longer available... (See how truth is not really)

So it would appear that Obama 'donates' 6% of his income.   I don't see that has "Bill Gate'ish"   Especially if you consider his choices.

Michael Tee

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2008, 12:07:58 PM »
I've really gotta run right now.  We are due for lunch at my niece's.  HOWEVER, just wanted to make one quick comment on the Tax Foundation - - which you claim is "non-partisan."  "Non-partisan" is not the same as "disinterested."  If you want to know how disinterested the Tax Foundation is, or is not, you should check the sources of its funding.  But I admit, that's not to discredit its facts and figures, which are sometimes useful.  I'll comment later on the rest of that post.

richpo64

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2008, 05:19:33 PM »
Mike wrote:
>>That's funny, I thought it was more a case of him forcing everyone to do the right thing ...<<

Scary stuff. Stalin did it. Hitler did it. Mao did it. Castro did it. Chavez is doing it. It won't fly in America. Even if they try. The people will put a stop to it.

crocat

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2008, 08:25:52 PM »
I've really gotta run right now.&nbsp; We are due for lunch at my niece's.&nbsp; HOWEVER, just wanted to make one quick comment on the Tax Foundation - - which you claim is "non-partisan."&nbsp; "Non-partisan" is not the same as "disinterested."&nbsp; If you want to know how disinterested the Tax Foundation is, or is not, you should check the sources of its funding.&nbsp; But I admit, that's not to discredit its facts and figures, which are sometimes useful.&nbsp; I'll comment later on the rest of that post.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/candidates08/compare/

About the Tax Foundation

Our Mission
The mission of the Tax Foundation is to educate taxpayers about sound tax policy and the size of the tax burden borne by Americans at all levels of government. From its founding in 1937, the Tax Foundation has been grounded in the belief that the dissemination of basic information about government finance is the foundation of sound policy in a free society.

What Do We Stand For?
As a nonpartisan educational organization, the Tax Foundation has earned a reputation for independence and credibility. However, it is not devoid of perspective. All Tax Foundation research is guided by the following principles of sound tax policy, which should serve as touchstones for good tax policy everywhere:

Simplicity: The tax system should be as simple as possible, and taxes should be easy to understand and comply with.

Transparency: Taxes should be as visible as possible to taxpayers, and should make clear who and what is being taxed.

Stability: Tax law should not change continually, and changes in tax law should not be retroactive.

Neutrality: Taxes should aim to raise revenue with a minimum of economic distortion, and should not attempt to micromanage the economy.

Growth-Promotion: Taxes should raise revenue for programs while consuming as small a portion of national income as possible, and should interfere with economic growth, trade and capital flows as little as possible.

How Should Journalists Describe Us?
The Tax Foundation is a nonpartisan tax research group based in Washington, D.C.

The Tax Foundation Story
The year was 1937, the heart of the Great Depression. During the previous decade, first under Herbert Hoover, then under Franklin Roosevelt, federal spending had climbed 170 percent; over the previous five years internal revenue collections had risen 198 percent.

Concerned about the effect such expansion might have on private sector growth, a small group of business executives gathered in New York City to discuss how they could monitor fiscal activities at all levels of government and convey the information to the general public. They decided to launch an organization which, through research and analysis, could inform and educate Americans using objective, reliable data on government finance.

In the subsequent seven decades, the Tax Foundation has been a national leader in promoting a sense of "tax consciousness" in the public. Its distribution of information has helped provide policy makers with the lay of the land in the ongoing debate over tax and budget policies, as well as with a greater understanding of the policies proposed.

In its seven decades the Tax Foundation has earned a reputation for its independence in gathering data and publishing information on the public sector in an objective, unbiased fashion. As a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt educational organization, the Tax Foundation exists on voluntary contributions from philanthropic foundations, corporations, and individuals across the country.


Again, as an aside... why would I want to listen to anyone disinterested in a subject.  The claim to be NONE partisan... not bi-partisan.  Disinterested is not an opinion that I would court in anything meaningful in my life.

Plane

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2008, 09:56:34 PM »
<<Probably not.  Especially since he thinks giving away your money is "him" being generous.>>

That's funny, I thought it was more a case of him forcing everyone to do the right thing, but then I don't seem to have the advantage that you do of reading his mind.


Frankly , that is even worse.

Plane

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2008, 10:12:30 PM »
Quote
Neutrality: Taxes should aim to raise revenue with a minimum of economic distortion, and should not attempt to micromanage the economy.


There must be few Congressmen who agree with this , taxing and exempting selectively is one of the powers that Congress likes to use to controll the path of almost anything.

Michael Tee

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2008, 11:18:13 PM »
As expected, the Tax Foundation does NOT publish a list of its donors showing the sources of its funding.  the most it will say on this subject on its website is what cro has already posted for our edification:

<<As a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt educational organization, the Tax Foundation exists on voluntary contributions from philanthropic foundations, corporations, and individuals across the country.>>

I'm sure it does.  The reluctance to name its funding sources should itself raise heavy suspicions as to its impartiality.


<<Again, as an aside... why would I want to listen to anyone disinterested in a subject.  The claim to be NONE partisan... not bi-partisan. >>

No offense, cro, but I believe the above indicates that you don't understand what "disinterested" really means.  It means the source of the information has no hope of reaping any financial or other advantage based on the text of its report.  For example, a heavily-taxed corporation has an interest in persuading the public that it is too heavily taxed.   If it sponsors a research organization, it will likely benefit if that organization's research indicates that it, or perhaps all major corporations like it, are too heavily taxed.  It will not benefit if the research shows that it is NOT too heavily taxed and in fact could sustain the imposition of even heavier taxes.


<<Disinterested is not an opinion that I would court in anything meaningful in my life.>>

If that were true, it would mean that if you were looking for a house to buy and you wanted to hire a consulting engineer to check for cracks in the foundation, you would gladly hire the owner of the house to check for cracks (if he were a consulting engineer) but you would not consider hiring the services of a firm of consulting engineers not related in any way to the owner or to the agent brokering the deal.  Most people, however, would want the opinion of a truly disinterested party and not the opinion of an interested party or the friend of an interested party.  For reasons which ought to be obvious.

Amianthus

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2008, 01:04:41 AM »
Being a 501(c)(3) corporation requires them to refrain from anything that would be considered lobbying. If they do so, they will lose their 501(c)(3) status.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

crocat

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2008, 08:34:45 AM »
As expected, the Tax Foundation does NOT publish a list of its donors showing the sources of its funding.  the most it will say on this subject on its website is what cro has already posted for our edification:

<<As a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt educational organization, the Tax Foundation exists on voluntary contributions from philanthropic foundations, corporations, and individuals across the country.>>

I'm sure it does.  The reluctance to name its funding sources should itself raise heavy suspicions as to its impartiality.


<<Again, as an aside... why would I want to listen to anyone disinterested in a subject.  The claim to be NONE partisan... not bi-partisan. >>


No, I would hire an engineer who chose his profession because he is interested in watch dogging people that may use inferior methods and products.

No offense, cro, but I believe the above indicates that you don't understand what "disinterested" really means.  It means the source of the information has no hope of reaping any financial or other advantage based on the text of its report.  For example, a heavily-taxed corporation has an interest in persuading the public that it is too heavily taxed.   If it sponsors a research organization, it will likely benefit if that organization's research indicates that it, or perhaps all major corporations like it, are too heavily taxed.  It will not benefit if the research shows that it is NOT too heavily taxed and in fact could sustain the imposition of even heavier taxes.


<<Disinterested is not an opinion that I would court in anything meaningful in my life.>>

If that were true, it would mean that if you were looking for a house to buy and you wanted to hire a consulting engineer to check for cracks in the foundation, you would gladly hire the owner of the house to check for cracks (if he were a consulting engineer) but you would not consider hiring the services of a firm of consulting engineers not related in any way to the owner or to the agent brokering the deal.  Most people, however, would want the opinion of a truly disinterested party and not the opinion of an interested party or the friend of an interested party.  For reasons which ought to be obvious.


I had answered this but as I looked back, my response was not here... so here goes.

If I was buying a house the opinion that I would be a firm of consulting engineers.  We do not agree on the fact they would be 'disinterested.'   More to the point, I believe they would be very INTERESTED.  Let us further say that these people are involved in many aspects of their profession that would indeed hope to have legislation to support their chosen field against charlatans
« Last Edit: November 03, 2008, 01:41:15 PM by crocat »

Michael Tee

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2008, 10:46:08 AM »
<<Being a 501(c)(3) corporation requires them to refrain from anything that would be considered lobbying. If they do so, they will lose their 501(c)(3) status.>>

They don't have to lobby to advance the interests of their patrons.  All the patrons would expect (or appreciate) is for the "independent research" not to reach conclusions harmful to their interests.

Amianthus

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2008, 10:54:39 AM »
They don't have to lobby to advance the interests of their patrons.  All the patrons would expect (or appreciate) is for the "independent research" not to reach conclusions harmful to their interests.

Educational trusts under 501(c)(3) also have to provide independent correlation for their publications (ie, they have to rely on proper sources). I'm involved with organizations operating under 501(c)(3). If you can prove that they're advancing an agenda and not just reporting facts, they will lose their status.

And, while I'm not sure if it's required to keep donor lists private, we're certainly encouraged to do so by "powers that be" (IRS in this case).
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: Virtue
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2008, 11:23:29 AM »
<<Educational trusts under 501(c)(3) also have to provide independent correlation for their publications (ie, they have to rely on proper sources). >>

Well, their studies would be of no use to their donors if they were based on fabricated data.  I would guess that where they have some wiggle room would be in the selection of the data chosen for analysis and the interpretation to be put on it.

<<I'm involved with organizations operating under 501(c)(3). If you can prove that they're advancing an agenda and not just reporting facts, they will lose their status.>>

I'm sure these guys are very familiar with the parameters and know how to keep well within them (or go right up to the limits, too, if necessary) but I'm equally sure that their large corporate donors and individual donors would not continue to fork over their dough, year in and year out, if the conclusions of the Foundation came out, on balance, year after year after year to be inimical to their own interests.

<<And, while I'm not sure if it's required to keep donor lists private, we're certainly encouraged to do so by "powers that be" (IRS in this case).>>

Why on earth would the IRS care whether you buried the donor list deep in an abandoned salt mine guarded by hundreds of vicious Rottweilers or posted it with daily revisions on your web-site?