Author Topic: Opinion Poll  (Read 4147 times)

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sirs

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2008, 11:41:07 PM »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Cynthia

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2008, 11:47:10 PM »
Giving the auto millions is not going to solve this problem. 

UAW is going to have to come to the table and strategize.

Create new jobs. Follow new rules.

Boom can still happen.


I agree with Gingrich!

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2008, 11:51:53 PM »
You cannot blame the line workers for Detroit's mess. Nor can you blame union people from wanting to keep their standing as middle class.

 They did not decide to make guzzlers and trucks galore. Management made nearly all the mistakes. They will have to be a part of the solution, but they did into create the problem.

If you give a worker a bunch of Citation parts or Escort parts or Avalanche parts, it is unreasonable to expect that they will build a Prius with them.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2008, 12:04:36 AM »
Sorry Xo, you can't hang this debacle on the Hummer.  It rests SQUARELY on BOTH Auto Maker Management and the Labor Unions.  No one is blaming every single union worker, just as no one is ever blaming every single teacher.  It's the union leaership, who's core is always what can we do to keep our union member employed.  Which is a fine sentiment, but when it's at the detriment, if not destruction, of the organization they work in, then you can see the problem.  FACT it costs the BIG 3 FAR more to make American cars than messers Toyota, Honda, & Nissan does in making Japanese cars.  And the Japanese cars are FAR superior in every way imaginable way, safety, durability, longevity, resale value.

That math doesn't add up, to try and blame this on Hummer-like gas guzzlers.  The Unions, in their efforts to manipulate the big 3 in maintaining so much job security, as led to cars that are far more expensive making, and yet of lesser quality.  "Gas Guzzlers" & "trucks" are simply deflective red herrings
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BSB

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2008, 12:10:20 AM »
I'm not concerned with the type of car they built. We wanted trucks, SUVs, and big engines. The problem is they built crap. What's the top rated pick-up in terms of reliability? The Toyota Tundra. How can Detroit let a bunch of Japs build a better pick-up truck than us? 

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2008, 12:34:38 AM »
"Gas Guzzlers" & "trucks" are simply deflective red herrings
=============================================
Not at all. If Detroit had dedicated more effort to decent sedans and tried to build them better, they would not be in the mess they are in now, with a huge inventory of guzzler trucks and SUVs.

Once I had an 82  Buick Regal. Even though it had under 50K miles on it when I bought it, it cost a fortune to keep the damn thing running. It had a 3.8 liter V6 engine, and no power. I had to replace the gas pump, the motor mounts, the mugffler, the starter and the alternator and the head gaskets and do a ton of work on the AC and the Cruise control the first year I owned it. I was never sure the silly thing would stop in time. It turns out that it had front brake rotors exactly the same size as a Chevette. Eventually, it caught fire.

I wasn't ready to spend a lot of money, so I bought an 86 Hyundai Excel from a colleague. I fixed the muffler and replaced the alternator(it needed a bigger cable) and drive it on and off for six years. It wasn;t a great car, but it was very easy to work on. In those days Hyundais were the cheapest new car you could buy, and n one respected them. But Hyundai decided, unlike Detroit, to improve their image.

What did they do? They put in a 100K warranty on every car they built, and every year they improved the quality, while still keeping the prices down. And now, all the ar magazines and most people respect Hyundai.

 GM won't give you that sort of warranty on anything they sell. The decision to implement this warranty was a management decision, of course.

In 1960-63 I worked at the Claycomo Ford Assembly plant. At that time, they made Comets and Falcons and some big Fords. Now they make trucks there.

If a Comet of a Falcon was defective, it was almost always because the mnagement was speeding up the line and not providing enough relief workers to send on the line when others needed to take a bathroom break. No one does his best job when he can only think about taking a pee, face it.

They manufactured the Falcon from 1960 to 1967 in the US, but that same body style that we built at Claycomo was manufactured up through 2000 or so in Argentina and Brazil, but they improved the brakes, wheels, engines and suspension greatly. These cars had a shitty reputation in the US, but Argentines think they were great cars, except that they had an unhappy reputation of being the cars that the Fascist Secret Service used to haul their enemies off to their doom during the Dirty Little War period of Videla and thge other Fascist generals in the 1980's.
 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2008, 02:05:43 AM »
"Gas Guzzlers" & "trucks" are simply deflective red herrings
=============================================
Not at all.

YES, they are.  Right up there with "tax cuts for the rich".  Hyperbolic rhetoric to try and shift the focus away from the core problem/issue


If Detroit had dedicated more effort to decent sedans and tried to build them better, they would not be in the mess they are in now, with a huge inventory of guzzler trucks and SUVs.

If unions didn't force the auto makers to make vastly more expensive cars compared to the folks in Japan, they would not be in the mess they are in now, financially on the brink.  Were you aware that the Auto Unions, at the threat of striking, were able to have in their contracts some pool of employees, making full salary, full benefits, and do SQUAT?  They punch in, then do crossword puzzles, play cards, watch movies, then at the end of the shift, punch out, and go home.  It was brought about when new modernization was to be implemented, and the Unions fearing a decrease in their #'s, managed to get this little tidbit passed, by the mere threat of striking  I'm doubting Japan's workers have such a freebie


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2008, 02:20:23 AM »
I'm not concerned with the type of car they built. We wanted trucks, SUVs, and big engines. The problem is they built crap. What's the top rated pick-up in terms of reliability? The Toyota Tundra. How can Detroit let a bunch of Japs build a better pick-up truck than us? 

That is quite the point. They built what the market demanded. This has a LOT more to do with crappy cars than anything else.

BSB

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2008, 02:24:18 AM »
Still no excuse, Sirs.

If it costs Detroit more, fine. They can tag on another $1,000 to the $45 to $50,000 it costs to buy an F250 Super Cab diesel and then make sure it won't brake down on you when you're a couple a hundred miles from anywhere.

BSB

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2008, 02:30:39 AM »
Henny, if the public wants a 375hp SUV bild them a good one. Not a piece of junk. If they were in the habit of building quality, instead of getting away with as little as possible, they could make the switch now to *quality* economic cars. Detroits problem is a lack of quality.

sirs

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2008, 02:40:22 AM »
Still no excuse, Sirs.  If it costs Detroit more, fine. They can tag on another $1,000 to the $45 to $50,000 it costs to buy an F250 Super Cab diesel and then make sure it won't brake down on you when you're a couple a hundred miles from anywhere.

I'm not excusing anyone in the least, B.  Point being it costs "Detroit" almost double what it costs Japan to make a car, and with that near double the cost, we've been getting an inferior product....which I can only speculate is management's anemic lack of forsight, ideas, & cajones
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2008, 02:47:20 AM »
Henny, if the public wants a 375hp SUV bild them a good one. Not a piece of junk. If they were in the habit of building quality, instead of getting away with as little as possible, they could make the switch now to *quality* economic cars. Detroits problem is a lack of quality.

Right - that's what I said. I was agreeing with you.

Plane

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2008, 05:29:05 AM »
There are a lot of Jppaneese brand cars being built in the US , these builders arn't in trouble are they?

crocat

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2008, 07:53:05 AM »
There are a lot of Jppaneese brand cars being built in the US , these builders arn't in trouble are they?

Would we know?  Seem's their economy is in just as much shit as ours....that said, look at how many people are employed here in the states by those companies versus the number of Americans employed here for American car companies.  I heard Arnold say the over $2,000.00 of every US car price is just for employee benefits.  Do you think that the Japanese (or any foreign) car (being built in their own country) has that kind of cost?http://money.cnn.com/2002/06/18/pf/autos/americancars_whatis/index.htm

I know that the article is old but it does add some points to think about.  Especially the last paragraph.  Nowadays you see American and foreign cars that are basically the same car just trimmed out a bit differently.

Regardless, I will continue to do my best to buy American cars because I don't plan on living in Japan any time soon.  Why should I support their economy... fuck em

hnumpah

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Re: Opinion Poll
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2008, 07:54:56 AM »
Quote
There are a lot of Jppaneese brand cars being built in the US , these builders arn't in trouble are they?

I haven't seen their sales numbers drop anywhere near as much as the US big three, but they are down. Isuzu has pulled out of the US auto market, but I'm not sure if they are still selling trucks here.
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