The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .

[Plane]

Historical examples of governmental success at indoctranateing children includes Hitler youth no less often than any positive development , a bright line should be drawn on this side of recruiting.

What do you mean? That Hitler Youth indoctrinated childen to make them homosexuals? What do you mean by a "bright line"?

Well ,yes they did. Even though in later times that same party used Homosexuality as an excuse to kill , ironys run all over Natzi history.


But that isn't the point I was after , the government should not be trusted to indoctrinate children in anything seriously important and certainly not anything seriously contriversial. If after the government establishes its right to make kids into something other then what the childs parents want , it starts makeing the children into something that you can't stand , will you complain on grounds of...?

[Plane]

It is a fact that every sort of person has become a parent at one time or another , this absolves every sort of problem ?


I have no idea what you feel you have a right to object to.

Imagine...
Speaker one..
"I am a bank robbing , drug smuggleing , evoloutiong teaching, slave owning ,Satan worshiping , gay , tax avoiding, draft dodgeing , Communist , Klansman , running for congress."

JS_ " I would take issue with you on one or two of those....."

Speaker one...
" And I am a parent."

JS_ " Oh well then , Ok."

Plane, this is a completely unfair portrayal of what I've said and I think you know that.

I'll give you a real-life scenario. My next door neighbors are lesbians. They are NASCAR and Football loving lesbians. Very nice ladies who love kids. All the children on the block, including my son like to go next door and hang out, especially when the neighbor has her nieces over.

Now the kids just say that she has a "roommate" and I have not bothered to explain differently. What would you have me tell them Plane? Not to play there?


Would it make a difference to you if I told you that they also have a McCain/Palin sign prominently displayed in their yard?

Oh yes they are absolved for the sake of Republicanism.

If you are volentarily allowing them to influence your kids your rights are not being trampled , your wisdom or not will be proven by time and the eventual cost of your decisions that you have a right to make.

[Plane]

Historical examples of governmental success at indoctranateing children includes Hitler youth no less often than any positive development , a bright line should be drawn on this side of recruiting.

Never mind the audacity of comparing homosexuality to Nazism for a moment, the Hitler Youth were not a very successful program of encouraging children to be Fascists. It was basically simple nationalism, not a lot different than the Scouts or schools forcing kids to say the pledge of allegiance every morning. Pope Benedict XVI was in a Hitler Youth program and it did not create a Fascist Fr. Ratzinger.

Moreover, this is a bizarre view of human sexuality. There aren't different sides "recruiting." There isn't a marketing strategy to sell people on heterosexuality, homosexuality, or any other variant. Good lord, do y'all not remember what it was like to be a young man? Did you really have to look to an external source to determine who were attracted to? I knew that Anne Marie Collins was the girl for me at a rather young age. (And Paula Abdul, Janet Jackson, Molly Ringwald but I didn't tell Anne Marie that ).

I just don't understand this worldview you all have. There's no "recruiting." A woman is attracted to other women and a guy to other guys. Just because we don't understand it, does not mean there is some sinister conspiracy afoot. They likely went through the same feelings at that some young age. How can you attack someone for that any more than attacking someone for the color of their skin?

So itis quite ordinary for a class to be bussed to their teachers wedding?

I was under the impression that this was unusual and was a teaching oppurtunity for the San Francisco teacher.


I didn't say I didn't understand it ,  I am talking about an overreach of government usurping a parents responsibility, if the Hitler Youth was less successfull , that is good news but hardly excuses an approach to the method for what our civic authoritys think is right .

The worst part of the Hitler youth was not the NATZIsm , some of them would have become Natzis anyway , perhaps just as many , we can't tell. It is that these kids were taken from their parents without giveing the parents a choice about it and taught exactly what the government thought was good.  Generally when this happens thereis a lot of nice promise about what is being taught is good for the children , but in practice what is taught is what is good for the government.

[Plane]

<<Children should be off limits for the government to improve this way , this is a discussion appropriate for adults , but children are defenseless against it.>>

Children are defenceless against ideas, period.  If they learn nothing about the matter at school, they will definitely be "learning" about it at home and in the streets and playgrounds.  All the evidence indicates that what they have learned in the streets and playgounds is enough to turn life into a living hell for tens of thousands of GLBT youth, often with deadly results.

<<Historical examples of governmental success at indoctranateing children includes Hitler youth no less often than any positive development >>

Leaving aside the issue of just how successful the government actually was in indoctrinating the Hitler Youth, I think it's outrageous to compare the Hitler Youth movement to raising kids to be tolerant and non-violent towards alternative lifestyles and sexual diversity.  You don't seem to be against the Pledge of Allegiance, so I take it your anti-indoctrination views are fairly selective.

<< . . . a bright line should be drawn on this side of recruiting.>>

Your use of the word "recruiting" makes me wonder if you have ever viewed the actual material used in schools relating to this issue.  It seems highly unlikely  to me that such material would include anything remotely resembling "recruiting" - - teaching non-violence, tolerance and mutual respect for another lifestyle or non-conforming sexual orientation is a far cry from "recruiting," IMHO. 

"Recruiting" would imply some sustained argument that the alternative is somehow far superior to conventional life, that the kid would be better off or happier on the other side of the normal lifestyle or something of that sort.  Tolerance is not advocacy of the thing tolerated.

I assume that the material you are referring to is something that you have not personally reviewed and would suggest in the interests of simple basic fairness that you become familiar with it before denouncing it.

Rich: the video brought a lump to my throat.  It's absolutely beautiful.  Sad that those kids seem to scare you, and really unnecessary.  That's the future of America - - an America without war and fascism.  An America without evil, deceitful, lying leaders like Bush and Cheney.  An America that once again will enjoy the respect of the world.

When did I tell you that I liked the Pledge of allegience?

It origin was an attem,pt to indoctrinate children of the South with the idea that to devide the USA is sin , I will like the Pledge a lot better when the edit the " indivisible " out of it.

[_JS]

So itis quite ordinary for a class to be bussed to their teachers wedding?

I was under the impression that this was unusual and was a teaching oppurtunity for the San Francisco teacher.


I didn't say I didn't understand it ,  I am talking about an overreach of government usurping a parents responsibility, if the Hitler Youth was less successfull , that is good news but hardly excuses an approach to the method for what our civic authoritys think is right .

The worst part of the Hitler youth was not the NATZIsm , some of them would have become Natzis anyway , perhaps just as many , we can't tell. It is that these kids were taken from their parents without giveing the parents a choice about it and taught exactly what the government thought was good.  Generally when this happens thereis a lot of nice promise about what is being taught is good for the children , but in practice what is taught is what is good for the government.

Nice...but now try facing the issues that I raised, which are at the heart of the issue. This garbage about the Hitler Youth and government over reaching is the long road to Albuquerque.

[_JS]

Oh yes they are absolved for the sake of Republicanism.

If you are volentarily allowing them to influence your kids your rights are not being trampled , your wisdom or not will be proven by time and the eventual cost of your decisions that you have a right to make.

So, you think that homosexual neighbors should be shunned?

[Plane]

So itis quite ordinary for a class to be bussed to their teachers wedding?

I was under the impression that this was unusual and was a teaching oppurtunity for the San Francisco teacher.


I didn't say I didn't understand it ,  I am talking about an overreach of government usurping a parents responsibility, if the Hitler Youth was less successfull , that is good news but hardly excuses an approach to the method for what our civic authoritys think is right .

The worst part of the Hitler youth was not the NATZIsm , some of them would have become Natzis anyway , perhaps just as many , we can't tell. It is that these kids were taken from their parents without giveing the parents a choice about it and taught exactly what the government thought was good.  Generally when this happens thereis a lot of nice promise about what is being taught is good for the children , but in practice what is taught is what is good for the government.

Nice...but now try facing the issues that I raised, which are at the heart of the issue. This garbage about the Hitler Youth and government over reaching is the long road to Albuquerque.

Well I tried , what point did I miss?

[_JS]

Well I tried , what point did I miss?

OK.

1. You believe that homosexuality is a choice and not an attraction these individuals had from youth?
2. You believe that homosexuals actively "recruit" people to their lifestyle?
3. #2 automatically assumes that heterosexuals are vulnerable to this "recruiting" so we can infer that you believe this as well?

Can you explain some of the logic that goes into these beliefs?

[Plane]

Oh yes they are absolved for the sake of Republicanism.

If you are volentarily allowing them to influence your kids your rights are not being trampled , your wisdom or not will be proven by time and the eventual cost of your decisions that you have a right to make.

So, you think that homosexual neighbors should be shunned?

That is so entirely beside the point that you are going to have to struggle hard to get this point.

You should have the right to shun them even if it is wrong to shun them.

If your neighbors were NATZIs and I made you visit them a lot I would certainly be doing both of you wrong , but if I thought otherwise because I was terribly foolish perhaps I would sneak your kids into a NATZI celebration just so they would not have the impression that NATZIS wern't ordinary people. Why Hitler himself was a sunny and cheerfull person that was kind to animals and children , fun to be around and uplifting to the people he was wont to encourage. No way a kid could come back from an evening with the Hitlers in a bad mood.

So no you should have no right to shun anyone , unless the government says it is alright , as you and I know the government is never going to be wrong about stuff like that.

[sirs]

So, you think that homosexual neighbors should be shunned?

That is so entirely beside the point that you are going to have to struggle hard to get this point.  You should have the right to shun them even if it is wrong to shun them.

GREAT point, Plane

[_JS]

No Plane...again you are equivocating Nazis and homosexuals, that isn't going to fly. As a parent, I know when something isn't kosher and I certainly would not allow my child into such a situation.

But I asked you a question, directly. Do you, Plane, think that homosexual neighbors should be shunned?

[_JS]

GREAT point, Plane

Strawman...I never said you could not shun anyone you want, hence why I asked the question.

[Plane]

Well I tried , what point did I miss?

OK.

1. You believe that homosexuality is a choice and not an attraction these individuals had from youth?

Definitely , sexual attraction is trainable .

2. You believe that homosexuals actively "recruit" people to their lifestyle?

Yes , should I look up a discussion of this ?, I don't really like to go there too often, washing my computer in three waters afterwards is hard on the circuits.

3. #2 automatically assumes that heterosexuals are vulnerable to this "recruiting" so we can infer that you believe this as well?

To some degree , do you think that people are born with a complete set of instincts that with no instruction produces a well rounded person? Human beings are very teachable and reprogrammable even to great depths of the sub conscious. Do you think that people are born with Bestiality or Rape in their system ? Do you think that people are born thieves or born leaders , born to Football or born to Soccar? There are really very few things we depend on instinct for as adults and more things in which we use reason for overcoming our instincts.

Can you explain some of the logic that goes into these beliefs?

  No more than you can I guess , can you point out the "logic" in accepting Homosexuality as unalterable from conception?

This strikes me more as a large assumption or hypothesis rather than logic. As though I were to state that rape can't be discouraged because the desire is innate. If that sounds silly then you understand what I am getting at.
 

[Plane]

GREAT point, Plane

Strawman...I never said you could not shun anyone you want, hence why I asked the question.

Now you are holding up the strawman.

I didn't tell you that you had to shun them.

So I thought you asked the question as a deflection from my main theme ,
Which is;;;
........ the government should not be directing your kids attitude twards right and wrong without giveing you prior and proper right to refuse. This should be the rule with few exceptions because far and away parents have their childrens welfare at heart more than even the best govenment agency.

I am afaraid that I failed even to criticise you for allowing your kids to visit the Lesbians , did I mention that you were within your rights? If I think you are not smart to do this , I also think it is not my business. You were not really asking for advice were you?

[sirs]

GREAT point, Plane

Strawman...I never said you could not shun anyone you want, hence why I asked the question.

No, it's not.  This whole bullying technique in trying to suppress criticisms of homosexual behavior is what's not going to fly.  You can NOT take an obvious Christian principle of immorality, and PC it to death in order to make everyone all acceptant.  We can respect the person (even love them, as I do my brother), while still condemning any acts our God has taught us as being immoral.