DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: sirs on January 13, 2011, 01:23:20 PM
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Remember how it wasn't a memorial at all but a let's all dump on Bush & the GOP public event? Was it minutes or did Obama allow for at least an hour before he sent FBI Head Meuller to AZ. Purely for image, as Mueller is a bureaucrat, not an investigator. and what's with the tax payer paid for tee-shirts....at the AZ memorial?? T-Shirts??
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I recall a certain question posed by Plane to one of our patrons, asking if he felt that 1 side of the isle was more politically opportuntistic than the other. The answer was no
Now, while I can concede the GOP has pushed dumb legisation in the past, and when necessary stayed unified to block some legsilation that they believed detrimental to the country, can we be provided of any recent blatant & transparent purely opportunistic political partisanship not related to any pending legislation by the GOP?
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Tea Parties, Birthers and "Death Panel misrepresentations come to mind.
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Tea parties are not the GOP
Birthers are not the GOP
Death panels were not misrepresented
Let's provide clarity.....request is in the GOP, as in party, as in similar in blatant political oppotunism that the Dem party consistently demonstrates, manifested by the current tragedies in AZ
ok, floor is yours once again
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Tea parties are not the GOP
Birthers are not the GOP
Death panels were not misrepresented
Let's provide clarity.....request is in the GOP, as in party, as in similar in blatant political oppotunism that the Dem party consistently demonstrates, manifested by the current tragedies in AZ
ok, floor is yours once again
I suggest you go back to Planes question. I believe he asked for party or faction. So i guess it depends upon what faction means. And then you might go back to his follow-up quest6ion and my answer to determine whether we were talking about parties or ideologies. An individual is not a party. An individual can share ideology. So perhaps we can wait for Plane to provide clarity.
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I humbly suggest you should go back to my question posed....I made it specific to the GOP
Ball back in your court
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Then I'll just ignore your question, because once again you read into answers statements that aren't there.
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Ahh, then no examples to support a notion that both parties are equalivalently & transparently opportunistic. I appreciate the assistance
And FYI, "Tea parties" are not even an example of blatant political opportunism either, by a "faction". It was a manifestation of the anger that the electorate was developing as both Democrat policies were being rammed down their throats, and DC was demonstrating complete and utter disregard to fiscal responsibility that we all have to abide by, or go bankrupt, or even go to jail
But again, I thank you
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Ahh, then no examples to support a notion that both parties are equalivalently & transparently opportunistic. I appreciate the assistance
And FYI, "Tea parties" are not even an example of blatant political opportunism either, by a "faction". It was a manifestation of the anger that the electorate was developing as both Democrat policies were being rammed down their throats, and DC was demonstrating complete and utter disregard to fiscal responsibility that we all have to abide by, or go bankrupt, or even go to jail
But again, I thank you
Perhaps you can give me examples of Democrat political opportunism so i can understand the parameters of this point you are trying to make.
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Wellstone Memorial
T-shirts at the AZ memorial
The push for re-implimenting the Fairness Doctrine
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Can you name any Democrat members of the Tea Party Caucus in Congress?
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Wellstone Memorial
T-shirts at the AZ memorial
The push for re-implimenting the Fairness Doctrine
What about the T Shirts?
The Fairness Doctrine push has been going on for years.
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Can you name any Democrat members of the Tea Party Caucus in Congress?
The Tea Party had goals/philosophies and the Republican Party signed on to many of them where the Dem Party didn't. What the D Party did do (and that includes Obama & Clinton) was attack, degrade, lie, divide, and soil upon on the Tea Party movement. The R Party decided to join up. It wasn't the other way around and the Tea Party signed up to the Rep Party.
The TP invitation was open to all; wasn't limited to one group, one race, or one party. You do recall the Tea Bagger insult, or don't ya? And you do recall that the Teas Party was looking for people to promote the US Constitution? So who in their right mind would be for less spending, living within a budget, smaller government, and abiding by the US Constitution?
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I take that to mean that there are no democrat members of the tea party movement. Did the GOP opportunistically attach itself to this grass roots uprising?
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Wellstone Memorial
T-shirts at the AZ memorial
The push for re-implimenting the Fairness Doctrine
What about the T Shirts?
It was a memorial, and they're handing out t-shirts, with political slogans??
The Fairness Doctrine push has been going on for years.
Nice and quiet, until this OPPORTUNITY presented itself to put it back on the front burner
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Can you name any Democrat members of the Tea Party Caucus in Congress?
The Tea Party had goals/philosophies and the Republican Party signed on to many of them where the Dem Party didn't. What the D Party did do (and that includes Obama & Clinton) was attack, degrade, lie, divide, and soil upon on the Tea Party movement. The R Party decided to join up. It wasn't the other way around and the Tea Party signed up to the Rep Party.
The TP invitation was open to all; wasn't limited to one group, one race, or one party. You do recall the Tea Bagger insult, or don't ya? And you do recall that the Teas Party was looking for people to promote the US Constitution? So who in their right mind would be for less spending, living within a budget, smaller government, and abiding by the US Constitution?
I'm not sure why Bt is hung up on the Tea Party, as a supposed example of political opportunitism by some faction. It's already been explained how it came to be. It wasn't via transparent political opportunitism, near as much as a clear desire to retun the country back on the path that made it great to begin with. A party, that simply exists, does not equate as an opportunistic political faction. That includes the Democrat party. It's the ACTIONS that demonstrate such.
I'd like someone to name 1 tragic event or circumstance, that the Tea party jumped on, "RIGHT FROM THE GATE", to push their political agenda
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The GOP certainly hijacked the tea parties focus on small government and low spending. made it their own once they read the tea leaves so to speak.
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I'm not sure how you can hijack something that's, IIRC, already part of your own founding platform. If anything they got a wake-up call
Next?
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I'm not sure how you can hijack something that's, IIRC, already part of your own founding platform. If anything they got a wake-up call
Next?
How could that be their platform, if they ran up deficits? If anything the tea party put the GOP on notice that business as usual would no longer work.
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as I said....WAKE UP CALL. As I said, it's part of their own platform (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=78545). Can't "hijack" something you already have. The GOP merely stopped following it
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as I said....WAKE UP CALL. As I said, it's part of their own platform (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=78545). Can't "hijack" something you already have. The GOP merely stopped following it
If they stopped following it, it was no longer part of their creed, unless you are calling them hypocrites.
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The GOP certainly hijacked the tea parties focus on small government and low spending. made it their own once they read the tea leaves so to speak.
maybe they (as in the R Party) listened to the people and realized that the party had strayed away from Ronald Reagan's belief about how government should work. Taking advantage of death - the death of Liberalism! I love that kind of opportunism!
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I'm not sure how you can hijack something that's, IIRC, already part of your own founding platform. If anything they got a wake-up call
Next?
How could that be their platform, if they ran up deficits? If anything the tea party put the GOP on notice that business as usual would no longer work.
Because the R Party was hijacked just as the D Party was hijacked by the same people, more or less. How can you have two parties that essentially believe and act the same way? There needs to be a clear choice or difference between the two parties. There is a clear choice now, and last November cemented why it's important. BT are you a block head? How could you miss something so obvious?
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as I said....WAKE UP CALL. As I said, it's part of their own platform (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=78545). Can't "hijack" something you already have. The GOP merely stopped following it
If they stopped following it, it was no longer part of their creed, unless you are calling them hypocrites.
I am. I don't see where it was removed from their platform. Do you?
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There is a clear choice now, and last November cemented why it's important. BT are you a block head? How could you miss something so obvious?
Oh i didn't miss anything. And i do believe eventually there will be a clear choice, via a third party formation.
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as I said....WAKE UP CALL. As I said, it's part of their own platform (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=78545). Can't "hijack" something you already have. The GOP merely stopped following it
If they stopped following it, it was no longer part of their creed, unless you are calling them hypocrites.
I am. I don't see where it was removed from their platform. Do you?
Why would you defend the GOP if you think them hypocrites?
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And why no response questioning why the T shirts are on Sirs list.
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BTW didn't the GOP use Williams firing as an opportunity (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20020458-503544.html) to try to defund NPR?
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as I said....WAKE UP CALL. As I said, it's part of their own platform (http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=78545). Can't "hijack" something you already have. The GOP merely stopped following it
If they stopped following it, it was no longer part of their creed, unless you are calling them hypocrites.
I am. I don't see where it was removed from their platform. Do you?
Why would defend the GOP if you think them hypocrites?
Why wouldn't I, if they've come to their senses, via the Tea Party movement, and will start adhering to their own platform
Unlike you, mainifested by your lack of examples, I don't see the GOP as so similar in being transparently opportunistic in their politics, following tragedies or natural disasters, in pushing an agenda, as the Dem party. Especially against the majority will of the Public. I see a platform I can agree with, and a structure in place to keep liberals from over running this country. It also allows me to bash and criticize them when they run as DC Elites vs the representatives we voted them into office for. Not to mention squashes any pretense you had that I was some Republican cool-aide drinker
Waiting for a 3rd party to manifest themselves, as "noble" as that might be, runs a serious risk of this country turning into a 3rd world pseudo-England, that will take far beyond my years to ever see a return to its glory days, and why we left England & Europe, in the 1st place.
And why no response questioning why the T shirts are on Sirs list.
?? (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116748/#msg116748)
BTW didn't the GOP use Williams firing as an opportunity (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20020458-503544.html) to try to defund NPR?
I heard "talk". I saw no serious efforts. Though it could be argued it's similar to the increased talk of the Fairness Doctrine. I think the difference is front burner vs back burner
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It was a memorial, and they're handing out t-shirts, with political slogans??
Together we thrive is a political slogan?
For what party?
I heard "talk". I saw no serious efforts. Though it could be argued it's similar to the increased talk of the Fairness Doctrine. I think the difference is front burner vs back burner
Hardly talk.
Sen. Jim DeMint, the conservative and increasingly powerful Republican senator from South Carolina, introduced a bill Friday to strip federal funding from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting (CPB) in the wake of National Public Radio's decision to fire Juan Williams for comments about Muslims that he made on Fox News earlier this week.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/10/22/jim-demint-introducing-bill-to-defund-public-broadcasting/ (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/10/22/jim-demint-introducing-bill-to-defund-public-broadcasting/)
Why would you defend the GOP if you think them hypocrites?
Why wouldn't I, if they've come to their senses, via the Tea Party movement, and will start adhering to their own platform
Have they? or did they simply regain the House on the backs of the Tea Party.
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It was a memorial, and they're handing out t-shirts, with political slogans??
Together we thrive is a political slogan?
For what party?
Pushed by the Obama adminstration....a political slogan....AT A MEMORIAL. Did you not hear his speech. It was arguably a campaign speech, reaching out to the middle, that he so desperately needs back, come 2012. Dovetails with his recent position announcements of previous moderate Democrats under the Clinton Administration. He's tacking middle, and used this memorial as a campaign platform
The sending of Mueller was pretty transparent. The speech, even worse. But the t-shirts??
Why would you defend the GOP if you think them hypocrites?
Why wouldn't I, if they've come to their senses, via the Tea Party movement, and will start adhering to their own platform
Have they? or did they simply regain the House on the backs of the Tea Party.
We shall see now, won't we. If its on the backs, they'll be out on their butts next election cycle, won't they
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Pushed by the Obama adminstration....a political slogan....AT A MEMORIAL.
So the GOP version would be Divided We Thrive?
Where did the T shirts come from? Who paid for them?
Have the dems used this slogan before?
If so when?
I watched the speech. I thought he hit the right notes. Apparently Glen Beck and CU4 did too.
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Must have missed the part where I was referring to Obama trying to tack back to the middle. No biggie
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Must have missed the part where I was referring to Obama trying to tack back to the middle. No biggie
No i saw it. Just didn't understand the relevance to either the t shirt nor his speech.
Perhaps you can tie them all together for me.
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Asked and answered already. You can choose to reject it, which you apparently already have
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Asked and answered already. You can choose to reject it, which you apparently already have
Nice dodge
Please show me a direct link to Obama vis a vis the T shirts.
Please explain to me why a speech delivered by the President of the United States at a memorial service should be anything other than neutral, main stream and above the fray.
What did you expect him to do?
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Asked and answered already. You can choose to reject it, which you apparently already have
Please show me a direct link to Obama vis a vis the T shirts.
I explained it already (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116778/#msg116778)
What did you expect him to do?
SKIP the tax payer payed T-shirts, and limit the "testamonials" to just him and perhaps the Governor of AZ
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SKIP the tax payer payed T-shirts, and limit the "testamonials" to just him and perhaps the Governor of AZ
Source that he is responsible for a: the T-Shirts and B: the program
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I never claimed they were definatively Obama's shirts. It's deductive reasoning based on who was giving the "testamonial", on how many shirts there were, and how the shirts dovetailed with what Obama was speeching, (coordinated) I highly doubt it was sheer coincidence.
If you wish to provide contrary facts, by all means. I'm willing to be seen as incorrect in my initial assumption
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I never claimed they were definatively Obama's shirts. It's deductive reasoning based on who was giving the "testamonial", on how many shirts there were, and how the shirts dovetailed with what Obama was speeching, (coordinated) I highly doubt it was sheer coincidence.
If you wish to provide contrary facts, by all means. I'm willing to be seen as incorrect in my initial assumption
So you have no proof that Obama was behind the T shirts or the program? Do you think perhaps your rant was knee-jerk and premature?
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I never claimed they were definatively Obama's shirts. It's deductive reasoning based on who was giving the "testamonial", on how many shirts there were, and how the shirts dovetailed with what Obama was speeching, (coordinated) I highly doubt it was sheer coincidence.
If you wish to provide contrary facts, by all means. I'm willing to be seen as incorrect in my initial assumption
So you have no proof that Obama was behind the T shirts or the program?
I think I already answered that...it's called deductive reasoning. Sheer coincidence that every chair had a t-shirt imprinted with the centrist message that Obama was speeching?? I think not
Do you think perhaps your rant was knee-jerk and premature?
No, on all 3 accounts. But as I said before, I'm perfectly willing to see the error of my assumption with some facts that refute it. I would not at all be surprised of the Campus coordinated things with the WH, and pre-arranged the shirts from their end
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The White House "branded" the memorial service for the Tucson shootings with a "Together We Thrive" logo and slogan.
Michelle Malkin on Wednesday, January 12th, 2011 in a blog post
Did the White House "brand" the Arizona memorial service with a logo and slogan?
False
The University of Arizona memorial service for the victims of the Tucson, Ariz. shootings was called "Together We Thrive." But Michele Malkin claimed the slogan was cooked up by the White House
In an opinion piece about the Jan. 12, 2011, memorial event, Malkin, a conservative pundit, accused the White House of "branding" the memorial service with the slogan, complete with its own logo.
Malkin noted that all 13,000 people who attended the "Together We Thrive" event were given blue and white T-shirts with the logo.
"Can't the Democrat political stage managers give it a break just once?" Malkin wrote in her column.
The Drudge Report subsequently ran a headline atop its web page, "Political Theme, T-Shirts at Memorial?" It linked to an AP photo of "Together We Thrive" T-shirts draped over the back of chairs before the memorial service at McKale Memorial Center on the University of Arizona campus.
But officials at the University of Arizona said the White House had nothing to do with the name or the logo.
"The name of the event and the logo for the event were done entirely by the university," said Johnny Cruz, a spokesman for the University of Arizona. "Branding of the event was not done in consultation with the White House, or any elected officials or political organization."
The T-shirts were also the university's doing, Cruz said.
"That was the university's idea," he said. "We wanted to give people something to remember, to symbolize the community spirit."
The university bought the shirts without the use of taxpayer dollars, although he wasn't sure if the cost was borne by donations.
"Almost everything was done by the university," Cruz said, including selection of the location for the event and planning the agenda. Once the president accepted an invitation, he said, the White House helped coordinate some logistics, such as security, but that was the extent of the White House involvement.
And "Together We Thrive" was conceived by a University of Arizona student, he said.
White House spokesperson Robert Gibbs said during his briefing that the university was responsible for logistics. "I think it?s important to understand we were invited to and accepted quite happily the invitation of the university," he said.
We should note that Malkin later added an update to her blog posting that stated, "As noted above, the University of Arizona announced the Together We Thrive event ? and a few readers wrote in to say that the campus initiated the logo/campaign. Given U of A president Robert Shelton's embarrassing, thinly-veiled partisan cheerleading for Obama tonight, it may indeed be a 100 percent-campus-initiated campaign. Given the Obama White House's meticulous attention to stage prop details, however, I would say the odds of involvement by Axelrod/Plouffe & Co. are high."
But university spokesman Cruz said all of the "stage prop details," as Malkin called them, were entirely conceived by and arranged by the college.
The burden of proof is on Malkin and she has failed to prove any White House involvement. She may believe she sees the handiwork of the White House at play, but there's no evidence to back that up. Certainly not enough to justify her claim the White House used the shooting tragedy as an opportunity to orchestrate a "branded" political event. We rate Malkin's claim False.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jan/13/michelle-malkin/did-white-house-brand-arizona-memorial-service-log/ (http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jan/13/michelle-malkin/did-white-house-brand-arizona-memorial-service-log/)
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So I was actually pretty close on my alternate assumption. Cool
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Yeah always a good idea to leave yourself some wiggle room when you are basing accusations on "deductive reasoning" . And if you don't, you can always go back and modify your post.
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Yea, I suppose you could
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Tell me why I should care about several dozen t-shirts.
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Tell me why I should care about several dozen t-shirts.
I don't think you are in the loop so MYOB!
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I conclude that you are intellectually incapable of answering the question, as always.
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Tea Parties, Birthers and "Death Panel misrepresentations come to mind.
I think the Tea Parties were badly misrepresented, how many arrests were ever needed at Tea Party events? What is the complaint against meetings where the protesters even clean up their own litter?
Birthers would be better off playing Farmville.
How were Death Panels misrepresented? Arn't there already death panels distributing American Kidneys? How can Obamacare be run sans death panels?
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Tea Parties, Birthers and "Death Panel" misrepresentations come to mind.
Were examples of political opportunism from the GOP and or their ideological soulmates.
Which was in response to this question (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-%27memorial%27/msg116720/#msg116720).
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Tea Parties, Birthers and "Death Panel" misrepresentations come to mind.
Were examples of political opportunism from the GOP and or their ideological soulmates.
Which was in response to this question (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-%27memorial%27/msg116720/#msg116720).
I don't think that the GOP "made use" of the Tea party, I don't think they were prepared. If the regular GOP had fallen in behind the Tea party they would have lost all moderates (which might have been alright really) if the GOP had of tried to lead the Tea party they wouold have been rejected.
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if the GOP had of tried to lead the Tea party they would have been rejected.
Has anyone in any Tea Party tried to reject Dick Armey?
Much of the Tea Party was financed by the Koch brothers, superrich Kansas oilmen oligarchs, for their own purposes.
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Tea Parties, Birthers and "Death Panel" misrepresentations come to mind.
Were examples of political opportunism from the GOP and or their ideological soulmates.
Which was in response to this question (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-%27memorial%27/msg116720/#msg116720).
Which was then subsequently debunked both here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116729/#msg116729) & here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116737/#msg116737), as well as here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116752/#msg116752)
Now, if a claim wants to be made that the GOP can and has been opportunistic at times, that's never been denied. The issue here is in taking tragedy, taking disaster, taking issues that have prescious little to do with politics, and trying to use that tragedy to push a political agenda. In that vain, there are still no examples by the GOP, that even remotely touch what the Democrat party consistently & sadly routinely does following such
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if the GOP had of tried to lead the Tea party they would have been rejected.
Much of the Tea Party was financed by the Koch brothers, superrich Kansas oilmen oligarchs, for their own purposes.
And Soros is some poor little fella, living in a studio apt
And FYI, much of the Tea party is financed by much of the nation...millions of folks like me
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Tea Parties, Birthers and "Death Panel" misrepresentations come to mind.
Were examples of political opportunism from the GOP and or their ideological soulmates.
Which was in response to this question (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-%27memorial%27/msg116720/#msg116720).
Which was then subsequently debunked both here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116729/#msg116729) & here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116737/#msg116737), as well as here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116752/#msg116752)
Now, if a claim wants to be made that the GOP can and has been opportunistic at times, that's never been denied. The issue here is in taking tragedy, taking disaster, taking issues that have prescious little to do with politics, and trying to use that tragedy to push a political agenda. In that vain, there are still no examples by the GOP, that even remotely touch what the Democrat party consistently & sadly routinely does following such
You haven't debunked anything.
Plane hasn't clarified his questions.
And until he does all you are doing is flapping your gums and moving the goal posts.
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You haven't debunked anything.
Plane hasn't clarified his questions.
And until he does all you are doing is flapping your gums and moving the goal posts.
I was satisfied with your answers , succinct tho they were, who an I to complain about brevity?
I agree that individuals are supposed to be the focus of decisions.
There can be institutionalised problems or dynamic effects of institutions that no individual controlls, but it is still individuals who decide to join , participate ,or leave the team even so.
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Tea Parties, Birthers and "Death Panel" misrepresentations come to mind.
Were examples of political opportunism from the GOP and or their ideological soulmates.
Which was in response to this question (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-%27memorial%27/msg116720/#msg116720).
Which was then subsequently debunked both here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116729/#msg116729) & here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116737/#msg116737), as well as here (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116752/#msg116752)
Now, if a claim wants to be made that the GOP can and has been opportunistic at times, that's never been denied. The issue here is in taking tragedy, taking disaster, taking issues that have prescious little to do with politics, and trying to use that tragedy to push a political agenda. In that vain, there are still no examples by the GOP, that even remotely touch what the Democrat party consistently & sadly routinely does following such
You haven't debunked anything.
Sure I have, as it relates to your claims in response to my original question. If anyone has moved anything its your attempt to take my clear inquiry, directly referencing tragedy, like what happened in AZ (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-'memorial'/msg116719/#msg116719), and answer it with a massive blanket, implying opportuntism, in any form was being asked for
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Opportunism you want ?
Directly involving a political party?
Tragedy
9-11
Opportunity
Iraq
Next
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::)
Right...because that was the agenda the GOP wanted the whole time oy So, Bush lied us into war, huh.
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Right...because that was the agenda the GOP wanted the whole time oy So, Bush lied us into war, huh.
Let me know if you have any rational questions specifically related to my words as stated in my post.
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Opportunism you want ?
Directly involving a political party?
Tragedy
9-11
Opportunity
Iraq
Next
For the sake of argument lets say that this is so.
This wouldn't mean that dumping Saddam wasn't needfull, but that when you are cleaning the garage you may as well clean the whole garage instead of just one side. Why just take out one garbage when you have severeal trashcans overflowing?
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::)
Right...because that was the agenda the GOP wanted the whole time oy So, Bush lied us into war, huh.
Let me know if you have any rational questions specifically related to my words as stated in my post.
There's no "question" required here. Now apparently Bush's response to 911, which was heralded initially, when he went into Afghanistan, subsequently transitioning into Iraq, which, IIRC even you defended was merely Bush and the GOP playing some opportunistic game to score political points. Apparently, men & women died, purely for political chicanery, if we're to follow your response tact....and you defended it. Wow
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Opportunism you want ?
Directly involving a political party?
Tragedy
9-11
Opportunity
Iraq
Next
For the sake of argument lets say that this is so.
This wouldn't mean that dumping Saddam wasn't needfull, but that when you are cleaning the garage you may as well clean the whole garage instead of just one side. Why just take out one garbage when you have severeal trashcans overflowing?
Plane gets it.
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Right...because that was the agenda the GOP wanted the whole time oy So, Bush lied us into war, huh.
Let me know if you have any rational questions specifically related to my words as stated in my post.
There's no "question" required here. Now apparently Bush's response to 911, which was heralded initially, when he went into Afghanistan, subsequently transitioning into Iraq, which, IIRC even you defended was merely Bush and the GOP playing some opportunistic game to score political points. Apparently, men & women died, purely for political chicanery, if we're to follow your response tact....and you defended it. Wow
Sirs doesn't.
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Much of the Tea Party was financed by the Koch brothers, superrich Kansas oilmen oligarchs
Is super rich George Soros an "oligarch" too?
Or is this another one of your attempts
to personally attack the messengers with insults
over family, weight, hair follicles, race, religion, ect...?
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::)
Right...because that was the agenda the GOP wanted the whole time oy So, Bush lied us into war, huh.
Let me know if you have any rational questions specifically related to my words as stated in my post.
There's no "question" required here. Now apparently Bush's response to 911, which was heralded initially, when he went into Afghanistan, subsequently transitioning into Iraq, which, IIRC even you defended was merely Bush and the GOP playing some opportunistic game to score political points. Apparently, men & women died, purely for political chicanery, if we're to follow your response tact....and you defended it. Wow
Sirs doesn't.
Correct.....sirs doesn't get how Bt can mange to completely miss the point about the political opportunism sirs bought up. You did defend the going into Iraq, correct?? You did support Bush and the GOP led effort to take Saddam out, correct?? Please, correct me if I'm wrong
Perhaps Bt could clarify himself better, so as not to prompt such confusion, on sirs part
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Please, correct me if I'm wrong
No
nonononononononononononononononono!
That would be countereproductive.
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lol
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"Together We Thrive" T-shirts handed out at the Arizona memorial service for those who lost
their lives in Saturday's tragedy were a theme recycled from an Obama Campaign slogan
(http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011411/content/01125106.Par.89380.ImageFile.jpg)
(http://www.canadafreepress.com/images/uploads/cover011411-1.jpg)
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Source?
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Source?
BT...the source is none other than Barack Obama dot com during his presidential campaign!
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/johnberry_iv/C94H (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/johnberry_iv/C94H)
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So it is entirely possible that these t-shirts were left over from the 2008 campaign, and someone, noting the togetherness theme was in harmony with peace and reconciliation, just left them there, as a gesture of peace and reconciliation.
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Obama Uses Tucson Memorial Service to Kick Off His 2012 Re-Election Campaign- Alex Jones Tv (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTg9U_pnrr0#noexternalembed-ws)
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Source?
BT...the source is none other than Barack Obama dot com during his presidential campaign!
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/johnberry_iv/C94H (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/johnberry_iv/C94H)
Wow. And how much grief was I getting for daring to have deduced the connection??
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Source?
BT...the source is none other than Barack Obama dot com during his presidential campaign!
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/johnberry_iv/C94H (http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/johnberry_iv/C94H)
Wow. And how much grief was I getting for daring to have deduced the connection??
Just so I am not accused of putting words in your mouth , specifically what connection are you claiming?
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The connection that this was a transparent opportunistic political endeavor, a literal jumpstart to the 2012 re-election campaign, disguised as a memorial service
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The connection that this was a transparent opportunistic political endeavor, a literal jumpstart to the 2012 re-election campaign, disguised as a memorial service
So you aren't claiming that the T shirts came from the Obama Campaign?
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I'm claiming, as I have all along, that the t-shirts were completely inappropriate, and dovetailed with a campaign kickoff, at this supposed memorial. I had deduced that the shirts were provided for, by the Administration, then later it appears that the President/Dean of the University supplied them. Which changes nothing outside of the source of the shirts. It was still completely & grossly inappropriate venue for a political event
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What other than the T shirts gave the appearance of a political event, moreso than any other event where politicians are invited speakers. Did Brewer use the event to further her politics?
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I find this complaining about t-shirts to be a bit absurd. No one was forced to take a t-shirt that did not want one, no one was forced to wear a t-shirt at all. It is a typical sirs. complaint. Dubious and questionable.
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What other than the T shirts gave the appearance of a political event, moreso than any other event where politicians are invited speakers.
How he was introduced, how he was applauded, how he was cheered....as I said, if you closed your eyes, and pretended you were not attending a MEMORIAL SERVICE, you could have sworn you were at a political pep rally
Or are you trying to infer there's no real difference between a political rally & a memorial service. If that's the case, I really need to have a talk with some folks who've lost loved ones. They apparently don't know how to do memorials correctly. Need much more pomp & circumstance. Perhaps there's a market for memorial attire....sweatshirts, baseball caps, oh, can't forget banners.
And no, this isn't to be confused with those wakes where the mourned do have a party
I find this complaining about t-shirts to be a bit absurd. No one was forced to take a t-shirt that did not want one, no one was forced to wear a t-shirt at all. It is a typical sirs. complaint. Dubious and questionable.
Typical of xo to ignore, dare I say, the obvious
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You are just saying what YOU expect from a memorial service. One assumes that you are not Irish or Jewish and have never been to an Irish wake or the reception after a Jewish funeral.
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It's what I expect from ANY memorial service.....RESPECT for those who lost their lives, and NOTHING to do with politics
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How he was introduced, how he was applauded, how he was cheered....as I said, if you closed your eyes, and pretended you were not attending a MEMORIAL SERVICE, you could have sworn you were at a political pep rally
What control did Obama have over
1. His introduction
2. The audience response
Do we have a photo of an applause sign?
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He had the pulpit. He had ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the event, as soon as he took the podium. Without uttering 1 word, he could have lifted his hands to calm the audience down. With 1 sentence at the beginning of THE MEMORIAL SERVICE, he could have presented it for what it was, A MEMORIAL SERVICE. Before he even went into his centrist message, he could have layed the foundation for why they were there, and that it would be inapprproate for any further raukus applause
He's the President of the United States, for crying out loud, Bt. You don't think he could have had the audience act appropriately, right from the get go? ................. IF he wanted them to, of course.
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(http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/bushmission2.jpg)
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He had the pulpit. He had ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the event, as soon as he took the podium. Without uttering 1 word, he could have lifted his hands to calm the audience down. With 1 sentence at the beginning of THE MEMORIAL SERVICE, he could have presented it for what it was, A MEMORIAL SERVICE. Before he even went into his centrist message, he could have layed the foundation for why they were there, and that it would be inapprproate for any further raukus applause
He's the President of the United States, for crying out loud, Bt. You don't think he could have had the audience act appropriately, right from the get go? ................. IF he wanted them to, of course.
Wouldn't that action be more in line with your claim that the event was staged than him being passive to the introduction and or the audience response?
Should he have reminded the audience that he was an invited speaker at a memorial if he had been booed, or should he just gone on with his speech?
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(http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/bushmission2.jpg)
Yeah there are a lot of similarities between the two incidences.
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He had the pulpit. He had ABSOLUTE CONTROL of the event, as soon as he took the podium.
Without uttering 1 word, he could have lifted his hands to calm the audience down.
With 1 sentence at the beginning of THE MEMORIAL SERVICE, he could have presented it for what it was, A MEMORIAL SERVICE.
Before he even went into his centrist message, he could have layed the foundation for why they were there, and that it would be inapprproate for any further raukus applause
He's the President of the United States, for crying out loud, Bt. You don't think he could have had the audience act appropriately, right from the get go? ................. IF he wanted them to, of course.
Wouldn't that action be more in line with your claim that the event was staged than him being passive to the introduction and or the audience response?
Yep, but the latter is still just as applicable
Should he have reminded the audience that he was an invited speaker at a memorial if he had been booed, or should he just gone on with his speech?
The former.....IF he wanted it to be an apolitical event
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(http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/bushmission2.jpg)
Yeah there are a lot of similarities between the two incidences.
Yea, they were both transparently, political events
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Yea, they were both transparently, political events
How so?
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LOL....well since the AZ memorial was already addressed on the how so, the Bush speech was his effort to demonstrate that the the political decision to go in and take out Saddam, had been accomplished. Not sure how that couldn't have been anything OTHER than a political event
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LOL....well since the AZ memorial was already addressed on the how so, the Bush speech was his effort to demonstrate that the the political decision to go in and take out Saddam, had been accomplished. Not sure how that couldn't have been anything OTHER than a political event
Actually you haven't established that the Arizona Memorial was a political event. all you did was establish that you perceived it as such.
So how was Bush's welcoming home the carrier a political event? Isn't that what Presidents do? Seems he had parents of Iraqi Fallen to the WH was that political also?
Was it planned as such?
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I would say at the very least "unusual" for a memorial service for the victims of a violent tragedy.
(http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0148c7a5229a970c-300wi)
(http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef0147e19be6b7970b-300wi)
(http://gatewaypundit.rightnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/jumbotron-e1295109386204.jpg)
Applause? at a memorial for victims?
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Closed Captioning is unusual at large events?
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Closed Captioning is unusual at large events?
No but I would think applause would be unsual at a memorial for victims of a violent tragedy.
Also I have not yet been able to verify, but it looks like the pep rally "Together We Thrive"
t-shirts given out at this memorial have printed at the bottom "Rocking America and Rocking the Vote"
which is a common theme of the DNC.
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No but I would think applause would be unsual at a memorial for victims of a violent tragedy.
Oh OK . So the jumbotron picture with the closed captioning is verification that attendees of the memorial applauded portions of Obama's speech.
I don't think that ever was in question or dispute. I heard it when i watched the speech. Did Brewer get any applause, i can't remember.
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LOL....well since the AZ memorial was already addressed on the how so, the Bush speech was his effort to demonstrate that the the political decision to go in and take out Saddam, had been accomplished. Not sure how that couldn't have been anything OTHER than a political event
Actually you haven't established that the Arizona Memorial was a political event. all you did was establish that you perceived it as such.
Actually I have. Your decision to ignore it, is yours
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"GRACE AND BEAUTY IN EVERY SEASON":
President Honors Coretta Scott King at Homegoing Celebration (President George W. Bush, New Birth Missionary Church, Atlanta, Georgia, 2/07/06)
To the King Family, distinguished guests and fellow citizens. We gather in God's house, in God's presence, to honor God's servant, Coretta Scott King. Her journey was long, and only briefly with a hand to hold. But now she leans on everlasting arms. I've come today to offer the sympathy of our entire nation at the passing of a woman who worked to make our nation whole.
Americans knew her husband only as a young man. We knew Mrs. King in all the seasons of her life -- and there was grace and beauty in every season. As a great movement of history took shape, her dignity was a daily rebuke to the pettiness and cruelty of segregation. When she wore a veil at 40 years old, her dignity revealed the deepest trust in God and His purposes. In decades of prominence, her dignity drew others to the unfinished work of justice. In all her years, Coretta Scott King showed that a person of conviction and strength could also be a beautiful soul. This kind and gentle woman became one of the most admired Americans of our time. She is rightly mourned, and she is deeply missed.
Some here today knew her as a girl, and saw something very special long before a young preacher proposed. She once said, "Before I was a King, I was a Scott." And the Scotts were strong, and righteous, and brave in the face of wrong. Coretta eventually took on the duties of a pastor's wife, and a calling that reached far beyond the doors of the Dexter Avenue Baptist Church.
In that calling, Dr. King's family was subjected to vicious words, threatening calls in the night, and a bombing at their house. Coretta had every right to count the cost, and step back from the struggle. But she decided that her children needed more than a safe home -- they needed an America that upheld their equality, and wrote their rights into law. (Applause.) And because this young mother and father were not intimidated, millions of children they would never meet are now living in a better, more welcoming country. (Applause.)
In the critical hours of the civil rights movement, there were always men and women of conscience at the heart of the drama. They knew that old hatreds ran deep. They knew that nonviolence might be answered with violence. They knew that much established authority was against them. Yet they also knew that sheriffs and mayors and governors were not ultimately in control of events; that a greater authority was interested, and very much in charge. (Applause.)
The God of Moses was not neutral about their captivity. The God of Isaiah and the prophets was still impatient with injustice. And they knew that the Son of God would never leave them or forsake them.
But some had to leave before their time -- and Dr. King left behind a grieving widow and little children. Rarely has so much been asked of a pastor's wife, and rarely has so much been taken away. Years later, Mrs. King recalled, "I would wake up in the morning, have my cry, then go in to them. The children saw me going forward." Martin Luther King, Jr. had preached that unmerited suffering could have redemptive power.
Little did he know that this great truth would be proven in the life of the person he loved the most. Others could cause her sorrow, but no one could make her bitter. By going forward with a strong and forgiving heart, Coretta Scott King not only secured her husband's legacy, she built her own. (Applause.) Having loved a leader, she became a leader. And when she spoke, America listened closely, because her voice carried the wisdom and goodness of a life well lived.
In that life, Coretta Scott King knew danger. She knew injustice. She knew sudden and terrible grief. She also knew that her Redeemer lives. She trusted in the name above every name. And today we trust that our sister Coretta is on the other shore -- at peace, at rest, at home. (Applause.) May God bless you, and may God bless our country.
Damn Politicians. Politicizing memorials.
http://brothersjuddblog.com/archives/2011/01/grace_and_beaut.html (http://brothersjuddblog.com/archives/2011/01/grace_and_beaut.html)
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And the t-shirts were located......where again? And by all means, show us the video where the all those (ooow wait, Bt's going to take that literally, and find 1 person who was perfectly calm), the vast majority of those in attendance, were hooting and hollering like it was their last kegger before summer break
You must have missed the part where I never said it wasn't a good thing for Presidents to not speak at memorials.
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You must have missed the part where I never said it wasn't a good thing for Presidents to not speak at memorials.
============================================
Damn!
We ALWAYS miss the parts where you never say stuff!
And those are the BEST PARTS! How could we be so careless!??
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Really
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And the t-shirts were located......where again? And by all means, show us the video where the all those (ooow wait, Bt's going to take that literally, and find 1 person who was perfectly calm), the vast majority of those in attendance, were hooting and hollering like it was their last kegger before summer break
You must have missed the part where I never said it wasn't a good thing for Presidents to not speak at memorials.
As far as I know, the T shirts were provided by the University.
And the crowd was free to respond as they wished.
You want this to be a political event at the behest of Obama, because that is what you want it to be, and your fear of being wrong is more powerful than your desire to be right.
Let me know when you have something a little more concrete than what you are pushing.
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Long after it was posted that the choice of t-shirts was the University's choice some people in here are still trying to equate them to the White House, and a political agenda. Even whacko, fruit loop, nut-job, Glenn Beck said that Obama did a good, non-political job at the Memorial.
I guess having a few brain dead people around serves a debate forum in some way or another, but I'm not sure how?
bsb
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And the t-shirts were located......where again? And by all means, show us the video where the all those (ooow wait, Bt's going to take that literally, and find 1 person who was perfectly calm), the vast majority of those in attendance, were hooting and hollering like it was their last kegger before summer break
You must have missed the part where I never said it wasn't a good thing for Presidents to not speak at memorials.
As far as I know, the T shirts were provided by the University. And the crowd was free to respond as they wished.
You want this to be a political event at the behest of Obama, because that is what you want it to be, and your fear of being wrong is more powerful than your desire to be right.
Let me know when you have something a little more concrete than what you are pushing.
Been there done that. I don't have to want anything, it was. You don't want to be a political event because sirs says it was, and your fear of sirs being right, is more powerful than your desire to be right.
The event was a "spectacle" Everyone saw it, everyone heard it. It had traces of a memorial, but Obama's actions, or lack there of, demonstrated what it really was. Obama had the absolute ability to steer the crowd in the appropriate direction, had he wanted to. But next time you go to one, where they're handing out banners, or baseball caps, or t-shirts, please take some photos. I'd love to see that have done at least twice
Long after it was posted that the choice of t-shirts was the University's choice some people in here are still trying to equate them to the White House, and a political agenda.
1 wrong, 1 right. At least batting 500 is better than striking out every time
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I don't have to want anything, it was.
Well then, that's it. Sirs has declared it such, ergo it is.
I guess that is why the leftist meme that Palin is responsible for the shootings, has legs.
Because we all know powerful people like Obama and Palin have absolute control of how their words are interpreted and acted upon.
Intent means nothing. Perception is everything.
Right Sirs?
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I don't have to want anything, it was.
Intent means nothing. Perception is everything. Right Sirs?
Wrong, but nice, albeit weak, try. If Obama's "intentions" of it were to be a memorial, he had the opportunity. His intentions were apparently otherwise
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Right. And Palin wanted Giffords shot, else why the crosshairs.
You can't have it both ways.
Prove the intent. Your certitude without that proof means nothing.
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You'd have a leg to stand if there were supporters of Palin that agreed with that notion. The intent is what Obama DIDN'T DO, or so I've been saying all along. Not that you're paying attention, at all
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You'd have a leg to stand if there were supporters of Palin that agreed with that notion. The intent is what Obama DIDN'T DO, or so I've been saying all along. Not that you're paying attention, at all
So because Obama didn't murder anyone at the memorial, that makes him a murderer?
Perhaps you should pay attention to what you are saying.
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Oh good God, you are really getting desperate, and talk about not paying attention. For those back in THIS reality, its more akin to...so because Obama didn't take charge at a memorial service to help reinforce that they were indeed there for a memorial service and not a pep rally, his intentions were made quite clear of its political tact. The t-shirts were just icing on the cake
I'm stunned that you could think the POTUS, at a MEMORIAL service, was made completely impotent at the hands of some AZ students. Really, stunned
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Notice he explains the purpose of his speech in the first two paragraphs. Sometimes people believe what they want to believe, even when faced with the reality of evidence to the contrary. For you, this is one of those time.
The speech:
Thank you. (Applause.) Thank you very much. Please, please be seated. (Applause.)
To the families of those we've lost; to all who called them friends; to the students of this university, the public servants who are gathered here, the people of Tucson and the people of Arizona: I have come here tonight as an American who, like all Americans, kneels to pray with you today and will stand by you tomorrow. (Applause.)
There is nothing I can say that will fill the sudden hole torn in your hearts. But know this: The hopes of a nation are here tonight. We mourn with you for the fallen. We join you in your grief. And we add our faith to yours that Representative Gabrielle Giffords and the other living victims of this tragedy will pull through. (Applause.)
Scripture tells us:
There is a river whose streams make glad the city of God,
the holy place where the Most High dwells.
God is within her, she will not fall;
God will help her at break of day.
On Saturday morning, Gabby, her staff and many of her constituents gathered outside a supermarket to exercise their right to peaceful assembly and free speech. (Applause.) They were fulfilling a central tenet of the democracy envisioned by our founders -- representatives of the people answering questions to their constituents, so as to carry their concerns back to our nation's capital. Gabby called it "Congress on Your Corner" -- just an updated version of government of and by and for the people. (Applause.)
And that quintessentially American scene, that was the scene that was shattered by a gunman's bullets. And the six people who lost their lives on Saturday -- they, too, represented what is best in us, what is best in America. (Applause.)
Judge John Roll served our legal system for nearly 40 years. (Applause.) A graduate of this university and a graduate of this law school -- (applause) -- Judge Roll was recommended for the federal bench by John McCain 20 years ago -- (applause) -- appointed by President George H.W. Bush and rose to become Arizona's chief federal judge. (Applause.)
His colleagues described him as the hardest-working judge within the Ninth Circuit. He was on his way back from attending Mass, as he did every day, when he decided to stop by and say hi to his representative. John is survived by his loving wife, Maureen, his three sons and his five beautiful grandchildren. (Applause.)
George and Dorothy Morris -- "Dot" to her friends -- were high school sweethearts who got married and had two daughters. They did everything together -- traveling the open road in their RV, enjoying what their friends called a 50-year honeymoon. Saturday morning, they went by the Safeway to hear what their congresswoman had to say. When gunfire rang out, George, a former Marine, instinctively tried to shield his wife. (Applause.) Both were shot. Dot passed away.
A New Jersey native, Phyllis Schneck retired to Tucson to beat the snow. But in the summer, she would return East, where her world revolved around her three children, her seven grandchildren and 2-year-old great-granddaughter. A gifted quilter, she'd often work under a favorite tree, or sometimes she'd sew aprons with the logos of the Jets and the Giants -- (laughter) -- to give out at the church where she volunteered. A Republican, she took a liking to Gabby, and wanted to get to know her better. (Applause.)
Dorwan and Mavy Stoddard grew up in Tucson together -- about 70 years ago. They moved apart and started their own respective families. But after both were widowed they found their way back here, to, as one of Mavy's daughters put it, "be boyfriend and girlfriend again." (Laughter.)
When they weren't out on the road in their motor home, you could find them just up the road, helping folks in need at the Mountain Avenue Church of Christ. A retired construction worker, Dorwan spent his spare time fixing up the church along with his dog, Tux. His final act of selflessness was to dive on top of his wife, sacrificing his life for hers. (Applause.)
Everything -- everything -- Gabe Zimmerman did, he did with passion. (Applause.) But his true passion was helping people. As Gabby's outreach director, he made the cares of thousands of her constituents his own, seeing to it that seniors got the Medicare benefits that they had earned, that veterans got the medals and the care that they deserved, that government was working for ordinary folks. He died doing what he loved -- talking with people and seeing how he could help. And Gabe is survived by his parents, Ross and Emily, his brother, Ben, and his fianc?e, Kelly, who he planned to marry next year. (Applause.)
And then there is nine-year-old Christina Taylor Green. Christina was an A student; she was a dancer; she was a gymnast; she was a swimmer. She decided that she wanted to be the first woman to play in the Major Leagues, and as the only girl on her Little League team, no one put it past her. (Applause.)
She showed an appreciation for life uncommon for a girl her age. She'd remind her mother, "We are so blessed. We have the best life." And she'd pay those blessings back by participating in a charity that helped children who were less fortunate.
Our hearts are broken by their sudden passing. Our hearts are broken -- and yet, our hearts also have reason for fullness.
Our hearts are full of hope and thanks for the 13 Americans who survived the shooting, including the congresswoman many of them went to see on Saturday.
I have just come from the University Medical Center, just a mile from here, where our friend Gabby courageously fights to recover even as we speak. And I want to tell you -- her husband Mark is here and he allows me to share this with you -- right after we went to visit, a few minutes after we left her room and some of her colleagues in Congress were in the room, Gabby opened her eyes for the first time. (Applause.) Gabby opened her eyes for the first time. (Applause.)
Gabby opened her eyes. Gabby opened her eyes, so I can tell you she knows we are here. She knows we love her. And she knows that we are rooting for her through what is undoubtedly going to be a difficult journey. We are there for her. (Applause.)
Our hearts are full of thanks for that good news, and our hearts are full of gratitude for those who saved others. We are grateful to Daniel Hernandez -- (applause) -- a volunteer in Gabby's office. (Applause.)
And, Daniel, I'm sorry, you may deny it, but we've decided you are a hero because -- (applause) -- you ran through the chaos to minister to your boss, and tended to her wounds and helped keep her alive. (Applause.)
We are grateful to the men who tackled the gunman as he stopped to reload. (Applause.) Right over there. (Applause.) We are grateful for petite Patricia Maisch, who wrestled away the killer's ammunition, and undoubtedly saved some lives. (Applause.) And we are grateful for the doctors and nurses and first responders who worked wonders to heal those who'd been hurt. We are grateful to them. (Applause.)
These men and women remind us that heroism is found not only on the fields of battle. They remind us that heroism does not require special training or physical strength. Heroism is here, in the hearts of so many of our fellow citizens, all around us, just waiting to be summoned -- as it was on Saturday morning. Their actions, their selflessness poses a challenge to each of us. It raises a question of what, beyond prayers and expressions of concern, is required of us going forward. How can we honor the fallen? How can we be true to their memory?
You see, when a tragedy like this strikes, it is part of our nature to demand explanations -- to try and pose some order on the chaos and make sense out of that which seems senseless. Already we've seen a national conversation commence, not only about the motivations behind these killings, but about everything from the merits of gun safety laws to the adequacy of our mental health system. And much of this process, of debating what might be done to prevent such tragedies in the future, is an essential ingredient in our exercise of self-government.
But at a time when our discourse has become so sharply polarized -- at a time when we are far too eager to lay the blame for all that ails the world at the feet of those who happen to think differently than we do -- it's important for us to pause for a moment and make sure that we're talking with each other in a way that heals, not in a way that wounds. (Applause.)
Scripture tells us that there is evil in the world, and that terrible things happen for reasons that defy human understanding. In the words of Job, "When I looked for light, then came darkness." Bad things happen, and we have to guard against simple explanations in the aftermath.
For the truth is none of us can know exactly what triggered this vicious attack. None of us can know with any certainty what might have stopped these shots from being fired, or what thoughts lurked in the inner recesses of a violent man's mind. Yes, we have to examine all the facts behind this tragedy. We cannot and will not be passive in the face of such violence. We should be willing to challenge old assumptions in order to lessen the prospects of such violence in the future. (Applause.) But what we cannot do is use this tragedy as one more occasion to turn on each other. (Applause.) That we cannot do. (Applause.) That we cannot do.
As we discuss these issues, let each of us do so with a good dose of humility. Rather than pointing fingers or assigning blame, let's use this occasion to expand our moral imaginations, to listen to each other more carefully, to sharpen our instincts for empathy and remind ourselves of all the ways that our hopes and dreams are bound together. (Applause.)
After all, that's what most of us do when we lose somebody in our family -- especially if the loss is unexpected. We're shaken out of our routines. We're forced to look inward. We reflect on the past: Did we spend enough time with an aging parent, we wonder. Did we express our gratitude for all the sacrifices that they made for us? Did we tell a spouse just how desperately we loved them, not just once in a while but every single day?
So sudden loss causes us to look backward -- but it also forces us to look forward; to reflect on the present and the future, on the manner in which we live our lives and nurture our relationships with those who are still with us. (Applause.)
We may ask ourselves if we've shown enough kindness and generosity and compassion to the people in our lives. Perhaps we question whether we're doing right by our children, or our community, whether our priorities are in order.
We recognize our own mortality, and we are reminded that in the fleeting time we have on this Earth, what matters is not wealth, or status, or power, or fame -- but rather, how well we have loved -- (applause)-- and what small part we have played in making the lives of other people better. (Applause.)
And that process -- that process of reflection, of making sure we align our values with our actions -- that, I believe, is what a tragedy like this requires.
For those who were harmed, those who were killed -- they are part of our family, an American family 300 million strong. (Applause.) We may not have known them personally, but surely we see ourselves in them. In George and Dot, in Dorwan and Mavy, we sense the abiding love we have for our own husbands, our own wives, our own life partners. Phyllis -- she's our mom or our grandma; Gabe our brother or son. (Applause.) In Judge Roll, we recognize not only a man who prized his family and doing his job well, but also a man who embodied America's fidelity to the law. (Applause.)
And in Gabby -- in Gabby, we see a reflection of our public-spiritedness; that desire to participate in that sometimes frustrating, sometimes contentious, but always necessary and never-ending process to form a more perfect union. (Applause.)
And in Christina -- in Christina we see all of our children. So curious, so trusting, so energetic, so full of magic. So deserving of our love. And so deserving of our good example.
If this tragedy prompts reflection and debate -- as it should -- let's make sure it's worthy of those we have lost. (Applause.) Let's make sure it's not on the usual plane of politics and point-scoring and pettiness that drifts away in the next news cycle.
The loss of these wonderful people should make every one of us strive to be better. To be better in our private lives, to be better friends and neighbors and coworkers and parents. And if, as has been discussed in recent days, their death helps usher in more civility in our public discourse, let us remember it is not because a simple lack of civility caused this tragedy -- it did not -- but rather because only a more civil and honest public discourse can help us face up to the challenges of our nation in a way that would make them proud. (Applause.)
We should be civil because we want to live up to the example of public servants like John Roll and Gabby Giffords, who knew first and foremost that we are all Americans, and that we can question each other's ideas without questioning each other's love of country and that our task, working together, is to constantly widen the circle of our concern so that we bequeath the American Dream to future generations. (Applause.)
They believed -- they believed, and I believe that we can be better. Those who died here, those who saved life here -- they help me believe. We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another, that's entirely up to us. (Applause.)
And I believe that for all our imperfections, we are full of decency and goodness, and that the forces that divide us are not as strong as those that unite us. (Applause.)
That's what I believe, in part because that's what a child like Christina Taylor Green believed. (Applause.)
Imagine -- imagine for a moment, here was a young girl who was just becoming aware of our democracy; just beginning to understand the obligations of citizenship; just starting to glimpse the fact that some day she, too, might play a part in shaping her nation's future. She had been elected to her student council. She saw public service as something exciting and hopeful. She was off to meet her congresswoman, someone she was sure was good and important and might be a role model. She saw all this through the eyes of a child, undimmed by the cynicism or vitriol that we adults all too often just take for granted.
I want to live up to her expectations. (Applause.) I want our democracy to be as good as Christina imagined it. I want America to be as good as she imagined it. (Applause.) All of us -- we should do everything we can to make sure this country lives up to our children's expectations. (Applause.)
As has already been mentioned, Christina was given to us on September 11th, 2001, one of 50 babies born that day to be pictured in a book called "Faces of Hope." On either side of her photo in that book were simple wishes for a child's life. "I hope you help those in need," read one. "I hope you know all the words to the National Anthem and sing it with your hand over your heart." (Applause.) "I hope you jump in rain puddles."
If there are rain puddles in Heaven, Christina is jumping in them today. (Applause.) And here on this Earth -- here on this Earth, we place our hands over our hearts, and we commit ourselves as Americans to forging a country that is forever worthy of her gentle, happy spirit.
May God bless and keep those we've lost in restful and eternal peace. May He love and watch over the survivors. And may He bless the United States of America. (Applause.)
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Being as I worked at a mostly Black university for 32 years, I can tell you that there is a tradition of applauding preachers for their sermons and other speeches. The etiquette is simply different.
Methodists do not applaud anything, the thought being that all adulation belongs to God. But really, it is simply a matter of different customs.
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Notice how he does squat to set the proper tone, after his 1st 2 paragraphs. Notice he does squat to bring the audience into the realm of why they were there. Notice how he does squat to bring the audience into line, when it was transparently obvious how rock-band groupie like they were acting. You'd have a leg to stand on, IF Obama made such an effort, and the audience persisted. He chose not to. Either it was because of piss poor judgement, or by design. You guys make the call
You defenders act if he was this wimp of a patsy President, no more able preside over an audience, than he can with his kids. And FYI, this wasn't a black church or black University. This wasn't a sermon
THIS WAS A MEMORIAL
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"Notice how he does squat to set the proper tone.......................................................................Notice how he does squat to bring the audience into line.................."
Who are you, the official tone setter, the official line drawer?
bsb
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No, a voter, and an American citizen. If you have a problem with my opinion, you're going to have to take it up with the founders.
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I don't agree ,sirs.
I guess he never forgets his own philosophy , but as such speeches go this one is acceptable to me.
I see the first part of the speech as being about the fallen , the second part as being encouragement to the mourning, he isn't pointing to himself much nor saying anything that i interpret as overly partizen , when someone says" we can all do better "we can all interpret this as applying to the other guys.
If this tragedy prompts reflection and debate -- as it should -- let's make sure it's worthy of those we have lost. (Applause.) Let's make sure it's not on the usual plane of politics and point-scoring and pettiness that drifts away in the next news cycle.
I don't know why he had to pick on me tho, was it something I have written here?
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The point wasn't the speech Plane...it never was. They're just words, and he does a great job of giving prepared speeches. That's never been at issue. It's what he didn't say. It's what he didn't do
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THIS WAS A MEMORIAL (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-%27memorial%27/msg117137/#msg117137)
And the transcript of the speech shows he treated it as such.
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There's an 'ol saying that truly applies here.....ACTIONS speak louder than words. His INaction's spoke very loudly, indeed. It's simply amazing how utterly impotent he must be, if we're to follow your tact
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There's an 'ol saying that truly applies here.....ACTIONS speak louder than words. His INaction's spoke very loudly, indeed. It's simply amazing how utterly impotent he must be, if we're to follow your tact
So if he raised his hands to quiet the crowd would be appropriate ACTION on his part?
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I don't hold the President responsible for the small details of the event, whether some ship captan hangs a banner with an easily misunderstood celebratory "Mission Accomplished" or some minor local functionary of the Democratic party decides to hand out pro Obama t-shirts leftover from the campaign, the flub was accomplished at a level of details that it is unreasonable to expect the President's personal approval to have been involved.
I always thought that sticking Bush with the "mission accomplished " banner was terribly unfair, I feel the same about expecting President Obama to controll a crouds reaction or for other small details of the setting.
He is directly responsible for the text of the speech and for the tone in which it is delivered, these are considerations I want to evaluate first and more carefully than elements of protocol or set design or anything elese that is the responsibility of people that the president does not choose himself.
This speech uses well chosen words and is obviously ment primarily to be comforting and encourageing. The speech delivery was in a tone of restraint appropriate to the greiving and enthusiasm appropriate to the discouraged.Bravo Zulu Mr. President
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There's an 'ol saying that truly applies here.....ACTIONS speak louder than words. His INaction's spoke very loudly, indeed. It's simply amazing how utterly impotent he must be, if we're to follow your tact
So if he raised his hands to quiet the crowd would be appropriate ACTION on his part?
When they were acting out of line, for a memorial YES. If that didn't work he could have added 1 little sentence to his prepared speech, to inform the audience where they were, and that such overt applause was inappropriate. IF he wanted to
But according to you he was completely impotent, as President of the United States, Most powerful man on the globe, able to facilitate Obamacare down our throats, but layed out flat, by AZ college students
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It is not the province of the president to instruct university students in the sort of manners you expect them to show.
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IT IS ABSOLUTELY THE PROVINCE OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES to instruct a rowdy audience, that it is grossly inappopriate for them to be acting out in such a way, AT A MEMORIAL
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There's an 'ol saying that truly applies here.....ACTIONS speak louder than words. His INaction's spoke very loudly, indeed. It's simply amazing how utterly impotent he must be, if we're to follow your tact
So if he raised his hands to quiet the crowd would be appropriate ACTION on his part?
When they were acting out of line, for a memorial YES. If that didn't work he could have added 1 little sentence to his prepared speech, to inform the audience where they were, and that such overt applause was inappropriate. IF he wanted to
But according to you he was completely impotent, as President of the United States, Most powerful man on the globe, able to facilitate Obamacare down our throats, but layed out flat, by AZ college students
Good thing they didn't act inappropriately, then.
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Had President Obama actually given them a tongue lashing, I am sure that sirs would have found fault with that as well.
As BT says, they were not acting inappropriately. They were not whooping and yelling and throwing objects and being otherwise disruptive.
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Had President Obama actually given them a tongue lashing, I am sure that sirs would have found fault with that as well.
Had President Obama provided said tongue lashing, he would have been praised by sirs
As BT says, they were not acting inappropriately.
Right...because every memorial, including the murder of a 9year old is handled with hooting, hollering, and t-shirts. Yea, happens all the time, doesn't it
not
Bt got it wrong, I'm afraid
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Sirs is the only one I've heard who doesn't understand the tone of the event. I wouldn't waste my time trying to explain it to him, as usual it will just fall on incapable ears.
Same thing with the Muslim Center. Everybody I know understands the game being played when it's referred to as a Mosque. If some are too parochial, or unaware, or bigoted, or purposely obtuse, to grasp it, there's nothing you can do but leave them behind. You can lead a horse...............
bsb
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Sirs is not the only one who understood both the "tone of the event" and what a memorial is all about. And since the apparent game about "the mosque" is to compare it to a latrine, one must heed the source of that message
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Sirs is not the only one who understood both the "tone of the event" and what a memorial is all about.
Sirs is the only one in this forum making a big deal out of it.
Did Obama even use the "slogan" in his speech?
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Sirs is not the only one who has defended this particular POV, and is only defending it. If Bt wants to equate that with "making a big deal out of it", so be it. Not here pounding the desk and holding my breath until everyone sees it my way. Merely defending what is grossly transparent, as far as I can tell.
Everyone trying to defend the apolitical tact, casts Obama as an egregious wimp. Then again, Cu4 seemed to bring a brighter light to that being the case. It's not that he was being opportunistic. He's merely one of the greatest wimps this country has ever had as a President
And what "slogan" would that be?
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And what "slogan" would that be?
The one on the T shirt that you keep insisting was part and parcel to the campaign atmosphere.
Together we thrive.
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And of course, you'll be able to find that quote where I made that case, where I was "insisting that the slogan was part and parcel" of anything
IIRC, I initially believed the presence of t-shirts were at the behest of the WH. It seems they were the doing of the University, though Cu4 casted doubt to some of the authenticity of it being solely the University's idea, but is largely irellevent to the point that, NEITHER source makes them appropriate at a MEMORIAL
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Whatever, Miss Manners.
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So, no quote. Didn't think so. But nice snark. Xo would be proud
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It was a memorial, and they're handing out t-shirts, with political slogans?? (http://debategate.com/new3dhs/3dhs/remember-the-wellstone-%27memorial%27/msg116748/#msg116748)
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Wow....I sure was "insisting" there, wasn't I. Yep, got me there ::)
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Yep, got me there
Sure did.
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lol