Author Topic: TSA --> TYJA?  (Read 10278 times)

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sirs

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2010, 02:44:46 AM »
You're too kind, Kimba.  Thank you
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2010, 10:35:30 AM »
"But reality is what it is....it is constitutional and it is not unreasonable"
Based on................?  Please elaborate how

Based on court cases.
Pretty much the Courts and Congress decide what is "Constitutional".
And they have decided these searches are constitutional ..again Reality is what it is SIRS.

There have been countless court challenges to the TSA airport searches.
The TSA is operating within the law as defined by the courts in the United States.
Do you really think if the courts had found this illegal the TSA would be operating in violation of court orders?
SIRS what court orders are the TSA violating? Are you claiming the TSA is in contempt of court? What court? What case?

Courts weigh the seriousness of the harm the searches are supposed to prevent against the
likelihood that the searches will help, and the degree of intrusion. Courts have consistently
upheld traditional airport security....involving metal detectors and followup pat-downs for weapons
as meeting this test. Weighing the potential deaths of hundreds or thousands, plus the destruction
of millions of dollars of property, against a few minutes of inconvenience, Congress authorizes TSA to
search travelers for weapons and explosives.

If a person goes through a scanner or a metal detector and the alarm sounds, they have the right to investigate
it and that is "reasonable". If a person refuses to enter through the scanner or metal detector then it is "reasonable"
to search them before allowing them on an airplane with other people.

Most people are not aware of is that the 9th Circuit Court of the United States ruled on the search of passengers
in airports back in 1973, which effectively suspends limited aspects of the Fourth Amendment while undergoing airport
security screening.

In 1973 the 9th Circuit Court rules on U.S. vs Davis, 482 F.2d 893, 908, there are key pieces of wording that give the
TSA its power to search. The key wording in this ruling includes ?noting that airport screenings are considered to be
administrative searches because they are conducted as part of a general regulatory scheme, where the essential
administrative purpose is to prevent the carrying of weapons or explosives aboard aircraft.?

U.S. vs Davis goes onto to state ?[an administrative search is allowed if] no more intrusive or intensive than necessary,
in light of current technology, to detect weapons or explosives, confined in good faith to that purpose, and passengers
may avoid the search by electing not to fly.?

U.S. vs Davis was upheld by the 9th Circuit Court in 1986 in U.S. vs Pulido-Baquerizo, 800 F.2d 899, 901 with this ruling
?To judge reasonableness, it is necessary to balance the right to be free of intrusion with society?s interest in safe air travel.?

These 9th Circuit Court ruling laid the path for the creation of Public Law 107-71, the Aviation Transportation and Security Act,
which was virtually unopposed by legislators when it was it was signed into law on the 19th of November 2001
by President George W. Bush
. This law laid the groundwork for the Transportation Security Administration and the evolution
of its current security procedures.

These laws give the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and Transportation Security Administration significant legal latitude to
perform the searches utilizing their current procedures without fear of violating the Fourth Amendment.
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #47 on: November 26, 2010, 10:41:59 AM »
It is pretty simple, really. Either the country does something that works to protect the public, or it does not. If it doesn't, then no traveler is safe.It si naive in the extreme to say that we need to just pat down and scan people who look like Muslims. None of the 9-11 terrorist were dressed in mufti, were they?

Walking through a scanner is not what I would call a violation of MY privacy: if it is a violation of yours, just don't do it. Then your choices are to let them give you an annoying pat down, or you just do not fly.

I am responsible for MY privacy and how much I value it. Just as I can put an alarm on my car or not, bolt my doors, or not: it is MY privacy and my right. Not yours.

I know damned well that if some terrorist gets on a plane and blows it up or flies it into something, THAT is worse than me going through a stupid scanner. I also know that clowns like sirs will be asking for President Obama's head on a stick if something like that happens. There is no way to satisfy ratbag rightwing loons, so why even try?

Let me decide what MY privacy is. You do what you can to protect yours. I would rather walk through a scanner than be killed.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #48 on: November 26, 2010, 11:11:22 AM »
According to this, the searches are constitutional, mission creep is not.

Is Tougher Airport Screening Going Too Far?

      By SCOTT MCCARTNEY



The Transportation Security Administration has moved beyond just checking for weapons and explosives. It’s now training airport screeners to spot anything suspicious, and then honoring them when searches lead to arrests for crimes like drug possession and credit-card fraud.

But two court cases in the past month question whether TSA searches—which the agency says have broadened to allow screeners to use more judgment—have been going too far.

A federal judge in June threw out seizure of three fake passports from a traveler, saying that TSA screeners violated his Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure. Congress authorizes TSA to search travelers for weapons and explosives; beyond that, the agency is overstepping its bounds, U.S. District Court Judge Algenon L. Marbley said.


Two recent court cases question whether TSA searches have been going too far.

“The extent of the search went beyond the permissible purpose of detecting weapons and explosives and was instead motivated by a desire to uncover contraband evidencing ordinary criminal wrongdoing,” Judge Marbley wrote.

In the second case, Steven Bierfeldt, treasurer for the Campaign for Liberty, a political organization launched from Ron Paul’s presidential run, was detained at the St. Louis airport because he was carrying $4,700 in a lock box from the sale of tickets, T-shirts, bumper stickers and campaign paraphernalia. TSA screeners quizzed him about the cash, his employment and the purpose of his trip to St. Louis, then summoned local police and threatened him with arrest because he responded to their questions with a question of his own: What were his rights and could TSA legally require him to answer?

Mr. Bierfeldt recorded the encounter on his iPhone and the American Civil Liberties Union filed suit in June against Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano, claiming in part that Mr. Bierfeldt’s experience at the airport was not an anomaly.

“Whether as a matter of formal policy or widespread practice, TSA now operates on the belief that airport security screening provides a convenient opportunity to fish for evidence of criminal conduct far removed from the agency’s mandate of ensuring flight safety,” the ACLU said in its suit.
‘Mission Creep’?

TSA said in a statement on the Bierfeldt incident that travelers are required to cooperate with screeners, and while it is legal to carry any amount of money when flying domestically, the agency believes cooperation includes answering questions about property. As a result of the recording, however, TSA determined that “the tone and language used by the TSA employee was inappropriate and proper disciplinary action was taken.”

The cases will likely inflame TSA critics and frequent travelers who believe screeners take a heavy-handed approach and worsen the hassle of getting through airports with layers of rules and sometimes inconsistent policies between different cities.

“TSA agents don’t get to play cops,” says Ben Wizner, an attorney who filed Mr. Bierfeldt’s suit. The ACLU has heard an increasing number of reports of TSA agents involved in what he called “mission creep,” he says.

TSA spokesman Greg Soule says airport screeners are trained to “look for threats to aviation security” and discrepancies in a passenger’s identity. TSA says verifying someone’s identity, or exposing false identity, is a security issue so that names can be checked against terrorism watch lists. Large amounts of cash can be evidence of criminal activity, Mr. Soule says, and so screeners look at the “quantity, packaging, circumstances of discovery or method by which the cash is carried.”

Questioning travelers is part of TSA’s standard procedures, and the agency gives its employees discretion. “TSA security officers are trained to ask questions and assess passenger reactions,” Mr. Soule says. “TSA security officers may use their professional judgment and experience to determine what questions to ask passengers during screening.”

No one questions arrests made after TSA runs into evidence of drugs or other crimes during weapons searches. A bulge in baggy pants can be investigated, for example, because it might be an explosive. If it turns out to be cocaine, TSA is expected to report it to police or Drug Enforcement Agency officials.

But once TSA has determined that someone doesn’t have weapons or explosives, agents sometimes keep searching—leading some legal experts to wonder whether questioning people about how much cash they’re carrying, the number of credit cards they have and even prescription drugs in their bags stretches the intent of airport security law.

Congress charged TSA with protecting passengers and property on an aircraft “against an act of criminal violence or aircraft piracy” and prohibited individuals from carrying a “weapon, explosive or incendiary” onto an airplane. Without search warrants, courts have held that airport security checks are considered reasonable if the search is “no more extensive or intensive than necessary” to detect weapons or explosives.

In testimony to Congress last month, Gale D. Rossides, acting TSA administrator, said the agency had moved past simply trying to intercept guns, knives and razor blades to “physical and behavioral screening to counter constantly changing threats.”

Every screener has completed a 16-hour retraining that “provides the latest information on intelligence, explosives detection and human factors affecting security,” she said. “We have revised our checkpoint Standard Operating Procedures to enable officers to use their judgment appropriately in achieving sensible security results.”

In the fake passport case, a man named Fode Amadou Fofana used a valid driver’s license with his real name at a Columbus, Ohio, TSA checkpoint. Because he had purchased his ticket for a flight at the airport just before departure, he was flagged for secondary screening. He didn’t set off metal detectors and TSA’s X-ray equipment didn’t see anything suspicious, according to court testimony. The bags were swabbed for explosive residue and did not trigger any alarms. TSA agents opened the bags and searched inside because he was selected for extra screening.

According to the judge’s ruling, the TSA agent involved testified that she had been instructed to search for suspicious items beyond weapons and explosives and to “be alert for anything that might be unlawful for him to possess, such as credit cards belonging to other people, illegal drugs or counterfeit money.”

The agent found envelopes with cash, which she considered suspicious. Three other envelopes had something more rigid than dollar bills. She testified she didn’t believe there were weapons inside, but opened them looking for “contraband” and found three fake passports.
Limiting Searches

Judge Marbley said the TSA had no authority to open the envelopes. In his ruling, he said prior cases clearly established that airport security searches should be aimed only at detecting weapons or explosives.

“A checkpoint search tainted by ‘general law enforcement objectives’ such as uncovering contraband evidencing general criminal activity is improper,” the judge wrote.The U.S. Attorney’s Office in Columbus has filed notice that it will appeal the judge’s order.

Mr. Bierfeldt’s suit, filed in U.S. District Court in the District of Columbia, seeks to bar TSA from “conducting suspicion-less pre-flight searches of passengers or their belongings for items other than weapons or explosives.”

Mr. Bierfeldt, who was released by TSA after an official in plain clothes saw political materials in his bag and asked if the cash was campaign contributions, said he just wants to save others from harassment by TSA. “It’s the principle of the matter,” he said. “I didn’t break any laws and was no threat.”

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204556804574261940842372518.html

BT

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #49 on: November 26, 2010, 11:30:12 AM »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2010, 11:33:45 AM »
A passport is legally the possession of the issuing government. It says so right in the passport. So seizing a bogus passport is not a violation of anyone's rights. A person has no right to carry falsified government documents.

Opening the envelopes would be the offense. Also, if they took the money, THAT would be an offense.
What if this guy were a Nigerian email scammer?

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2010, 11:53:20 AM »
"But reality is what it is....it is constitutional and it is not unreasonable"
Based on................?  Please elaborate how

Based on court cases.
Pretty much the Courts and Congress decide what is "Constitutional".
And they have decided these searches are constitutional ..again Reality is what it is SIRS.

Yes, becuase of course, Social Security is Constitutional, right?  Obamacare as well, right?  Abortion, right?  Just because the Judiciary has frequently allowed the executive & legislative branches to shred the Constitution, in the name of the Commerce Clause, or some non-existant precedent, doesn't equate to it truely being an act our Founders would have been applauding.

But I guess its good to know where your limits of support for the constitution are drawn.  Don't worry though, I won't suspect you of being a terrorist, if you're on my flight

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2010, 12:55:20 PM »
SIRS if you do not want Congress and the Courts deciding what is Constitutional
who do you propose do it?

Also did you ever answer my question about the Second Amendment?
Do you support that it has been decided that a citizen's Second Amendment
rights are not violated by making it illegal to own a machine-gun?
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2010, 01:33:20 PM »
So, in your eyes, you must support Obamacare, right?  Abortion, right?  Because they are classified as "Constitutional", and since the courts have ruled on them, you obviously support them, and in your eyes, are perfectly and appropriately Constitutional, right?

I never claimed I wanted anyone but the Judiciary deciding the Constitutionality of an issue.  I merely wish they'd stick to the Constitution, when making their laws and rulings
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2010, 01:47:01 PM »
So, in your eyes, you must support Obamacare, right?  Abortion, right?  Because they are classified as "Constitutional", and since the courts have ruled on them, you obviously support them, and in your eyes, are perfectly and appropriately Constitutional, right?



That summary is nowhere close to the argument CU4 made.

The ruling as to constitutionality and agreement with that ruling are separate thought processes.




sirs

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2010, 01:57:12 PM »
That's my point.  He's using the "legal" application of it supposedly being Constitutional, merely becasue the courts have ruled.  Ok, so it's technically constitutional....that makes it right?, ok?, acceptable?  Especially given the examples I've provided that are also technically constitutional.  When courts or the legislature or the executive branch, brazenly subvert the clear intentions of the constitution, just because they get away with it doesn't make it right.  Nor is claiming that "the courts have ruled" make the subversion any less overt
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2010, 02:11:50 PM »
And my point was that just because CU4 can cite court rulings showing the constitutionality of "administrative searches in a regulated industry", does not mean that he personally agrees with that court ruling or any other court ruling that may come up for discussion.

Your if-then logic is faulty.


sirs

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2010, 03:19:32 PM »
Not at all, since that's currently the legal justification being used in how these wholly unreasonable searches are being supported/advocated

If not, what is the justification??  Because they can?  Because they should?  Because it makes someone "feel safer"?  Ones rights end when they're imposed upon another
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2010, 03:38:17 PM »
Again you miss the point.

How can you say that CU should be in favor of abortion because the courts ruled in Roe vs Wade that way. Anyone who has read CU all these years knows damn well he is not in favor of abortion. Nor does he have to be, just because the courts ruled in a way different than his wishes.

The courts rulings are one thing, which he and others cited, when you said that these searches were a trampling of the 4th, agreement or disagreement with the rulings is quite another.

To claim that he must agree with Roe vs Wade is different than him acknowledging that the ruling exists.




sirs

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Re: TSA --> TYJA?
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2010, 03:48:14 PM »
Again you miss the point. How can you say that CU should be in favor of abortion because the courts ruled in Roe vs Wade that way

No, I'm spot on, since Cu4 supports the current unreasonable searches because to date, the courts have ruled that way


Anyone who has read CU all these years knows damn well he is not in favor of abortion.

PRECISELY.  Double standard perhaps.  I made that clear already when I referenced his apparent limitations in when and where he, or anyone else that has no problem with this Administrations mandate on the TSA, stops supporting the constitution.  Read, not law, but the constitution itself.  I've referenced how these searches are unconstitutional, and precisely how with the subversion of the 4th amendment.  The defense is "well the courts have ruled".  Ergo, it's ok

Abortion was ruled on......ergo, it's ok.  If not, we have a blatant double standard in play


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle