Author Topic: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?  (Read 8933 times)

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BT

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2010, 08:42:49 PM »
Do basically the smirkingchimp folks were calling Bush a Nigger?

Isn't that racist in and of itself?

Synonyms are synonyms, right?

Michael Tee

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2010, 08:59:25 PM »
<<Do basically the smirkingchimp folks were calling Bush a Nigger?>>

No, basically they were calling him a chimp.  There is no racist convention of referring white people in general or the Bush family in particular to chimps, so in that case, "chimp" meant "chimp."    Kinda like the Freudian joke, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

<<Isn't that racist in and of itself?>>

Well, it would be if there had been a pre-existing practice of racism that painted all whites as sub-human chimps or chimp relatives, but in the absence of such pre-existing practice, no, there is nothing at all racist about it.

<<Synonyms are synonyms, right?>>

Of course, but that doesn't mean that all synonyms have the same number of alternative meanings.

BT

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2010, 09:46:59 PM »
So it's all a matter of perception.

An insult to one could be an endearment to another.

But i do disagree with your minimization of the chimp slur.

I don't think it matters what race you are if someone infers that you are less than human, that's flat out a slur.

And to say that you have to be of a certain race for the slur to qualify as a slur is racist in and of itself.

And down right patronizing.



Michael Tee

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2010, 10:04:19 PM »
<<So it's all a matter of perception.>>

I don't think "perception" is exactly the word you want.  It's more like understanding a language.  Only the language we're talking about is the language of signs and symbols.  If you don't know all the connotations that a particular word has, you may mistake the meaning it has been given in someone else's speech.  If you're totally unaware of the racist usage of "chimp," "ape" or "monkey" to stand in for black people, then you might visually understand the meaning of "smirking chimp" under Bush's picture ("ha ha, he DOES kinda look like a chimp" but the Obama sign would be very puzzling ("I don't get it, why is Obama's face being painted over to look like a chimp?")   OTOH, someone to whom "nigger" and "chimp" have the same meaning, "gets it" instantly.  Thus, the Obama chimp signs are code, the sign carrier communicating to the racist sign reader, you're at home here, we both have the same view of Obama  and, by extension, of blacks in general.

<<An insult to one could be an endearment to another.>>

That's an old story, isn't it?

<<But i do disagree with your minimization of the chimp slur.>>

I didn't minimize it - - I said it was deplorable.  Hurtful and unfair.

<<I don't think it matters what race you are if someone infers that you are less than human, that's flat out a slur.>>

I agree - - I didn't endorse the slur on Bush, I just denied that it was racist.  It's objectionable on other grounds, but not on the grounds of racism.

<<And to say that you have to be of a certain race for the slur to qualify as a slur is racist in and of itself.>>

Now you're not making any sense.  "Nigger" is a slur on blacks, not on Jews or Asians.

<<And down right patronizing.>>

That's not making sense either.  Nothing patronizing about recognizing who the slur is directed at.  It's simply taking the word at its meaning.

 

BT

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2010, 10:35:56 PM »
the discussion is about the meaning of the word chimp.

What i don't quite get is if the speaker is of the mindset that Obama is a nigger why not just say so?

Why bother with some silly code. Is the code so complex that only the elite can figure it out and with moral indignation denounce the speaker and reap the adoration of the oppressed by doing so?





Michael Tee

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2010, 12:27:46 AM »
<<the discussion is about the meaning of the word chimp.>>

In the broadest sense, it's about the significance that the IMAGE of a chimp has for people (in the case of the Obama signs) and in the case of the Bush material (I'm not aware of signs but only of a blog entitled The Smirking Chimp) it's whether either the word or the image, applied to Bush, has any racist connotations.

<<What i don't quite get is if the speaker is of the mindset that Obama is a nigger why not just say so?>>

The Tea Party organizers don't want that kind of outright, in-your-face racism associated with their cause because it will scare away the more moderate racists, such as (for example) the kind of white Southern racists who supported racial segregation but not the KKK.  They felt the Klan were on the roughneck, criminal fringe, and they (the more centrist racists) were socially above that kind of rough stuff.  As a matter of fact, not only do the Tea Party organizers not want to be associated with people who use the N-word openly, they try to clean up the chimp signs because they feel even THAT is too racist.  Sometimes I think they don't even want to admit their racism to themselves.

<<Why bother with some silly code. Is the code so complex that only the elite can figure it out and with moral indignation denounce the speaker and reap the adoration of the oppressed by doing so?>>

Well, that's where we differ.  Not only do I think that most adults know what's meant when Obama is compared to a chimp, but I find it very hard to believe that you yourself don't get it.  Personally, I think you get it very well, but you just like messing with me.  Or playing innocent.

Rich

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2010, 12:41:00 AM »
Mike, you are a fuckig chimp. In the most racist form of the term. You're a shit throwing cannibal chimp. In fact, to call you a shit throwing cannibal chimp is an insult to shit throwing cannibal chimps.

BT

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2010, 01:13:43 AM »
Quote
As a matter of fact, not only do the Tea Party organizers not want to be associated with people who use the N-word openly, they try to clean up the chimp signs because they feel even THAT is too racist.  Sometimes I think they don't even want to admit their racism to themselves.

So the if tea party people don't want the racists there, that would indicate that they are not racists. Perhaps the chimp sign people are agents provocateurs. Kinda like the SEIU people at the town hall meetings. Isn't that one of Alinsky's tactics? Make the opposition defend themselves against all charges? Takes them of message.  Sets them up for ridicule. Another of Alinsky's tactics.



Michael Tee

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2010, 01:26:01 AM »
<<So the if tea party people don't want the racists there, that would indicate that they are not racists. >>

Or that they're racists who value appearance and know that there are potential members out there who would be turned off by the overt manifestation.  Remember the White Citizens Councils of the Southern states during the segregation battles?  They were racists but it was never "about" racism in any of their statements for public consumption.  It was about local traditions, harmony between the races (by keepting them apart) and even states' rights.  They were socially a cut above the KKK and as far as they were concerned, they wanted to keep it that way.  They didn't want KKK in their living rooms.

<<Perhaps the chimp sign people are agents provocateurs. >>

Anything's possible.  Show me the evidence that they're not what they seem to be, and I'll certainly give it fair consideration.

<<Kinda like the SEIU people at the town hall meetings. >>

Ya lost me there, I'm not familiar with the analogy.

<<Isn't that one of Alinsky's tactics? Make the opposition defend themselves against all charges? >>

Including child molestation?  Alien abductions?  I thought Alinsky was a practical guy.  I also felt, little that I know of him, that he was an honourable and ethical guy.  Provocateurs at "enemy" meetings are more familiar to me from the Nixon administration and J. Edgar Hoover.

<<Takes them of message.  Sets them up for ridicule. Another of Alinsky's tactics.>>

I'm sure Alinsky was all for setting them up for ridicule AND taking them off message.  What I question is where Alinsky advocated the use of provocateurs and false-flag ops to achieve those goals.  I would be extremely surprised if he did.  It's definitely something the Republicans are very familiar with though, from Don Segretti and the Dirty Tricks guys of CREEP.

BT

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2010, 03:40:21 AM »
Quote
Anything's possible.  Show me the evidence that they're not what they seem to be, and I'll certainly give it fair consideration.

The invitation for them to leave, indicates that they are not the type of people the movement is made of.

What you don't get is there is no council guiding this movement. It's as genuine as the netroots. No one is in charge. It isn't politburo driven. It is a peasant revolt.

sirs

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2010, 04:05:00 AM »
Quote
Anything's possible.  Show me the evidence that they're not what they seem to be, and I'll certainly give it fair consideration.

...What you don't get is there is no council guiding this movement. It's as genuine as the netroots. No one is in charge. It isn't politburo driven. It is a peasant revolt.


The great peasant revolt of 2010
 
By Charles Krauthammer
Friday, February 5, 2010


"Iam not an ideologue," protested President Obama at a gathering with Republican House members last week. Perhaps, but he does have a tenacious commitment to a set of political convictions.

Compare his 2010 State of the Union to his first address to Congress a year earlier. The consistency is remarkable. In 2009, after passing a $787 billion (now $862 billion) stimulus package, the largest spending bill in galactic history, he unveiled a manifesto for fundamentally restructuring the commanding heights of American society -- health care, education and energy.

A year later, after stunning Democratic setbacks in Virginia, New Jersey and Massachusetts, Obama gave a stay-the-course State of the Union address (a) pledging not to walk away from health-care reform, (b) seeking to turn college education increasingly into a federal entitlement, and (c) asking again for cap-and-trade energy legislation. Plus, of course, another stimulus package, this time renamed a "jobs bill."

This being a democracy, don't the Democrats see that clinging to this agenda will march them over a cliff? Don't they understand Massachusetts?

Well, they understand it through a prism of two cherished axioms: (1) The people are stupid and (2) Republicans are bad. Result? The dim, led by the malicious, vote incorrectly.

Liberal expressions of disdain for the intelligence and emotional maturity of the electorate have been, post-Massachusetts, remarkably unguarded. New York Times columnist Charles Blow chided Obama for not understanding the necessity of speaking "in the plain words of plain folks," because the people are "suspicious of complexity." Counseled Blow: "The next time he gives a speech, someone should tap him on the ankle and say, 'Mr. President, we're down here.' "

A Time magazine blogger was even more blunt about the ankle-dwelling mob, explaining that we are "a nation of dodos" that is "too dumb to thrive."

Obama joined the parade in the State of the Union address when, with supercilious modesty, he chided himself "for not explaining it [health care] more clearly to the American people." The subject, he noted, was "complex." The subject, it might also be noted, was one to which the master of complexity had devoted 29 speeches. Perhaps he did not speak slowly enough.

Then there are the emotional deficiencies of the masses. Nearly every Democratic apologist lamented the people's anger and anxiety, a free-floating agitation that prevented them from appreciating the beneficence of the social agenda the Democrats are so determined to foist upon them.

That brings us to Part 2 of the liberal conceit: Liberals act in the public interest, while conservatives think only of power, elections, self-aggrandizement and self-interest.

It is an old liberal theme that conservative ideas, being red in tooth and claw, cannot possibly emerge from any notion of the public good. A 2002 New York Times obituary for philosopher Robert Nozick explained that the strongly libertarian implications of Nozick's masterwork, "Anarchy, State, and Utopia," "proved comforting to the right, which was grateful for what it embraced as philosophical justification." The right, you see, is grateful when a bright intellectual can graft some philosophical rationalization onto its thoroughly base and self-regarding politics.

This belief in the moral hollowness of conservatism animates the current liberal mantra that Republican opposition to Obama's social democratic agenda -- which couldn't get through even a Democratic Congress and powered major Democratic losses in New Jersey, Virginia and Massachusetts -- is nothing but blind and cynical obstructionism.

By contrast, Democratic opposition to George W. Bush -- from Iraq to Social Security reform -- constituted dissent. And dissent, we were told at the time, including by candidate Obama, is "one of the truest expressions of patriotism."

No more. Today, dissent from the governing orthodoxy is nihilistic malice. "They made a decision," explained David Axelrod, "they were going to sit it out and hope that we failed, that the country failed" -- a perfect expression of liberals' conviction that their aspirations are necessarily the country's, that their idea of the public good is the public's, that their failure is therefore the nation's.

Then comes Massachusetts, an election Obama himself helped nationalize, to shatter this most self-congratulatory of illusions.

For liberals, the observation that "the peasants are revolting" is a pun. For conservatives, it is cause for uncharacteristic optimism. No matter how far the ideological pendulum swings in the short term, in the end the bedrock common sense of the American people will prevail.

The ankle-dwelling populace pushes back. It recenters. It renormalizes. Even in Massachusetts.


Can't blame these defeats on a Racist Northeast
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2010, 12:00:24 PM »
What you don't get is there is no council guiding this movement. It's as genuine as the netroots. No one is in charge. It isn't politburo driven. It is a peasant revolt.
=========================================================
Think upon this. A peasant revolt.

Have there ever been any such revolts that have been noted for outstanding achievement, or even competency?

Haiti? Padre Hidalgo's revolt in Mexico? The French communards? The American Revolution was NOT a peasant revolt, it was led by the middle class--lawyers like Jefferson and Adams, intellectuals like Franklin. experienced military leaders like Washington.

What we have is an assortment of Chihuahuas, best noted for constant and annoying yapping. 
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Rich

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2010, 12:31:26 PM »
>>Have there ever been any such revolts that have been noted for outstanding achievement, or even competency?<<

Yeah, the civil rights movement you moron.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2010, 01:40:44 PM »
Your ignorance is abysmal. The Civil Rights movement was an intellectual process from the beginning: based on the writings of Thoreau and Gandhi. IT had clearly defined leaders: the Teabaggers have none. It has a clear objective and philosophy, the teabaggers have none, other than they don't like taxes and some are clearly racists.

Dolt.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: 'Tea party' movement: Who are they and what do they want?
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2010, 01:42:06 PM »
What you don't get is there is no council guiding this movement. It's as genuine as the netroots. No one is in charge. It isn't politburo driven. It is a peasant revolt.
=========================================================
Think upon this. A peasant revolt.  Have there ever been any such revolts that have been noted for outstanding achievement, or even competency?...What we have is an assortment of Chihuahuas, best noted for constant and annoying yapping.  

Isn't it interesting how folks like Xo & Tee perseverate on how Socialism and/or Communism is a party of the people, that its governing in the people's best interests.  And yet, so frequently we see how "the people" are perceived by those who apparently are so much their superiors.  Boy, do I feel sorry for the people in such living conditions & locales
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle