DebateGate
General Category => 3DHS => Topic started by: BT on August 11, 2007, 12:15:23 AM
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Bush War Adviser Says Draft Worth a Look
Aug 10 06:25 PM US/Eastern
By RICHARD LARDNER
WASHINGTON (AP) - Frequent tours for U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have stressed the all-volunteer force and made it worth considering a return to a military draft, President Bush's new war adviser said Friday.
"I think it makes sense to certainly consider it," Army Lt. Gen. Douglas Lute said in an interview with National Public Radio's "All Things Considered."
"And I can tell you, this has always been an option on the table. But ultimately, this is a policy matter between meeting the demands for the nation's security by one means or another," Lute added in his first interview since he was confirmed by the Senate in June.
President Nixon abolished the draft in 1973. Restoring it, Lute said, would be a "major policy shift" and Bush has made it clear that he doesn't think it's necessary.
The repeated deployments affect not only the troops but their families, who can influence whether a service member decides to stay in the military, Lute said.
"There's both a personal dimension of this, where this kind of stress plays out across dinner tables and in living room conversations within these families," he said. "And ultimately, the health of the all- volunteer force is going to rest on those sorts of personal family decisions."
The military conducted a draft during the Civil War and both world wars and between 1948 and 1973. The Selective Service System, re- established in 1980, maintains a registry of 18-year-old men.
Rep. Charles Rangel, D-N.Y., has called for reinstating the draft as a way to end the Iraq war.
Bush picked Lute in mid-May as a deputy national security adviser with responsibility for ensuring efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan are coordinated with policymakers in Washington. Lute, an active-duty general, was chosen after several retired generals turned down the job.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QUECGG1&show_article=1
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That's hilarious. An administration composed almost exclusively of Vietnam-era draft dodgers and combat avoiders is now gonna consider drafting America's youth for the ever-popular project of forcing "democracy" a.k.a. oil robbery down the throats of an unwilling Iraqi population. THAT oughtta do wonders for the Smirking Chimp's approval ratings.
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http://www.normantranscript.com/opinion/local_story_223012325
Recruiting soldiers in times of war is not the easiest task. The Army now wants more money and incentives to sweeten the signings.
Pentagon leaders say they want to be able to give recruits up to $45,000 tax free that they accrue during their career. It's money on top of education and other incentives.
The Associated Press reports Army brass want to raise to $20,000 the signing bonus that troops get for joining before Sept. 30. They must head straight to boot camp.
Soldiers with non-offensive neck and hand tattoos would be allowed. They also want to raise the maximum enlistment age to 42, give soldiers a $2,000 bird dog fee for recruit referrals and waive weight requirements for husky soldiers who agree to trim down.
The Army also wants to send soldiers back to their hometowns to promote military enlistment.
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During a reltively pacefull time the Army grew too picky and the wage lagged.
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Makes sense. When the low-hanging fruit's all gone, why not just scoop up whatever's already fallen onto the ground? The Volkssturm of the 21st century. Generally seen as a measure of desperation, but who the hell can afford to keep up pretences any longer?
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When the low-hanging fruit's all gone
Who are these low hanging ftuit of which you speak?
Is this a newly adopted phrase you are using?
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As you yourself explained in one of your posts, "low-hanging fruit" is a synonym for easy pickin's. From the military recruiter's POV, it's boys (and girls) who are poor, uneducated, desperate for employment, in some cases badly in need of a Green Card or citizenship and have no alternative other than the military if they want to get ahead in life. People who have to risk life and limb in the military's mad adventures because they're plumb out of options.
I assume your question was rhetorical, since you yourself have previously answered it. What was your point?
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Not to necessarily raise a ruckas, but I have always felt that the draft shouldnever have been terminated. It was positive for many reasons, most notably an integrated tool. In fact, I will go somewhat further and state that if I were King, all males (perhaps females) would serve two years upon graduation form high school or the appropriate age(I have a step son who is in his third attempt at ninth grade as he refuses to watch up in the morning...sigh). It could be two years giving back to society and building maturity building park benches alongthe Appalachina Trial or whatever, but two years would be the required time frame. Exceptions? Sure, disabilities and such but no college deferments and "cop out" deferments in this category wold be allowed. The draft should be reinstituted immeidately, not because of Iraq but because it is the right thing to do.
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The draft had some positive benefits, which you mentioned, but you have to look at the overall effect of it. The overall effect was to provide a huge pool of manpower just waiting to be put to use. It encouraged military adventurism. One of the constraints that holds back the Bush administration from even wider military adventures in the Mid-East and elsewhere is lack of available manpower. A drafted Army would relieve some of that pressure, as well as releasing some of the pressure on military wages, which would no longer have to be competitive.
If the benefits of the draft are mainly reaped by the personal development of the slackers and the disadvantaged, wouldn't it be more constructive to take the funds that would otherwise go into a draft Army and put them to work in education, including early childhood development, and health care, including mental health?
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Realistically, won't happen, MT.
"If the benefits of the draft are mainly reaped by the personal development of the slackers and the disadvantaged, wouldn't it be more constructive to take the funds that would otherwise go into a draft Army and put them to work in education, including early childhood development, and health care, including mental health?"
I only mentioned ONE of the benefits and that mentioned personal development. There are others such as projecting military power. I'm not talking about imperialism. As UP and I agreed on some time ago, I propose a strong military but one that is non-adventurous. Have the appropriate force, a force so strong no one will mess with it. But, MT, you can use this force for reasons other than killing like assisting in worldwide disasters, etc. Good PR for the U.S. as well.
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The draft should be reinstituted immediately, not because of Iraq but because it is the right thing to do.
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THis makes sense if the US is supposed to be an Empire.
Iraq is an imperialist war, no matter how much you clowns argue that unemployed youth from Junction City Kansas and Arkadelphia Arkansas be trained to bust down the doors of Iraqis thousands of miles away in the name of democracy.
It is not the military that is adventurous. Most of them would rather stay at home and let Uncle Sugar take care of them and let them benefit from cheapo consumer products at the PX or BX. The adventurous element are the schmucks that manage to get themselves elected president who get vast contributions from the military suppliers that benefit most from the war.
There is a very accurate term for the ,military draft in a time of peace. It is "involuntary servitude". and it sucks donkeyhonks.
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As far as disaster relief goes, IMHO, it would be a lot more cost-effective and certainly less paternalistic, for the U.S. to train and equip local or regional relief forces to respond to their own disasters themselves. The whole idea of saving the world seems to depend on an under-appreciation of the very real and very serious problems that the U.S. faces at home, few if any of which are amenable to military-style solutions. Given the finite amount of funding available, I would think that problems of health-care, housing and education should be where the U.S. should concentrate its resources, plus now, as it appears, infrastructure maintenance and renewal. If sanity ever returns to the White House, THAT'S where the national effort should be focused.
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As far as disaster relief goes, IMHO, it would be a lot more cost-effective and certainly less paternalistic, for the U.S. to train and equip local or regional relief forces to respond to their own disasters themselves. The whole idea of saving the world seems to depend on an under-appreciation of the very real and very serious problems that the U.S. faces at home, few if any of which are amenable to military-style solutions. Given the finite amount of funding available, I would think that problems of health-care, housing and education should be where the U.S. should concentrate its resources, plus now, as it appears, infrastructure maintenance and renewal. If sanity ever returns to the White House, THAT'S where the national effort should be focused.
You are talking about Reagans peace dividend.
Yes we did reduce Military spending by more than 33% over the following decade andthere was a concidental robust economy.
But every improvement becomes the new norm , we must not retreat to the pre-WWII tiny Army we kept at the ready for most of our history , unless our potential for enemys return to pre-WWII levels.
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The draft should be reinstituted immeidately, not because of Iraq but because it is the right thing to do.
So you think conscription is the right thing to do? Yeah, I guess we ought to train the young to accept that their lives belong to the state. They can't own anything else. They don't own the money they earn, they pay the government for the privilege of having an income. They aren't allowed to own property, they not only pay for that privilege the government can take that privilege away anytime it likes. So why bother with the illusion that they even own their lives? If they didn't want to sign the social contract to serve thet state, they shouldn't have been born here.
(Yeah, that was me being unnecessarily sarcastic. That seems to happen a lot lately. I'll try to curb that in the future.)
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What was that you were saying about mooches?
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What was that you were saying about mooches?
If you're asking me, what I said was, "If they didn't have programs for people to mooch off of in the first place, they wouldn't need those [immigration] restrictions, now would they?" So what's your point?
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Conscripting Americans to go to war will change things here at home.
It was the enchilada in the Vietnam protests.
Nobody knows the extent of protesting occuring today because the media does not cover much, and the part they do cover seems to have trouble reporting correct numbers.
On a national level, unlike the Vietnam area, there is not much effort nowadays to stand up and deliver a response to protesters being shuttled into rope-offs and cages, and generally handled with the same new m.o. as the New Cops handling crowd control situations like riots.
Things have changed in the protest arena.
The technological components alone give strong support to the controllers.
The rights of protestors now seem moot, to a point. The stragtegies and tactics of modern cops seem to reflect that they think anything necessary justifies protecting the Homeland and keeping it Secure, rather than conceiving it in the manner cops had to in the sixties--as legally permissable dissent.
It was responsible monitoring with strong legal help in the waiting, and a press willing, at least, to cover it when you could smell the fire, that kept the cops straight back then.
This broad band of sem-iorganized advocacy and support has evaporated.
And now, the draft.
The news talk shows and the pundits rarely mention protests, but I have heard them mention nervously that if the draft were to return, it would guarantee more and bigger protests.
The ones out there now, protesting out of principle, are the base of this political animal. And when suddenly everybody else nows feels threatened with being conscripted to fight the fight for the mega-corporations, you are going to see swelling upon swelling of the protesting ranks.
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If you are an advocate of pay as you go, wouldn't conscription be as goos as any way to pay as you go?
Or is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?
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If you are an advocate of pay as you go, wouldn't conscription be as good as any way to pay as you go?
Or is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?
Well, citizenship is an interesting topic, namely what should enable you to obtain the right of citizenship? The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military. Sounds good to me, with some modifications, perhaps.
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The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.
As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.
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If you are an advocate of pay as you go, wouldn't conscription be as goos as any way to pay as you go?
Or is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?
So now conscription is a price to pay to be a citizen? So where I was being sarcastic earlier, you are, apparently, being serious. Kinda scary.
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is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?
And yeah i would have no problem with a gender neutral reinstatement of the draft.
I have a feeling current memebers of the military might not be happy with the possible loss of reenlistment bonuses but so it goes.
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<<You are talking about Reagans peace dividend.>>
No, I was just speaking in general terms. I don't know if there was a real peace dividend or if this was just some rhetorical device.
<<Yes we did reduce Military spending by more than 33% over the following decade andthere was a concidental robust economy.>>
Was it just a reduction in military spending or was the money that would have gone into the military put somewhere else instead? Did the total overall spending levels remain the same, or were they reduced by the amount of the cuts in the military budget?
<<But every improvement becomes the new norm , we must not retreat to the pre-WWII tiny Army we kept at the ready for most of our history , unless our potential for enemys return to pre-WWII levels.>>
If you are thinking of China, I would think your problems with China could be resolved diplomatically by defining reasonable and fair spheres of influence, relieving both parties of the need to maintain vast military expenditures. Of your other potential enemies, I don't think any of them are even close to the pre-WWII levels of the Axis Powers in terms of manpower and armaments.
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"From the military recruiter's POV, it's boys (and girls) who are poor, uneducated"
Wrong.
Today's volunteer force is more educated than the general population -- more than 90 percent of new recruits have a high school diploma, compared with only 75 percent of the youth population. Most of today's recruits come from middle class households not poor households.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm (http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/cda06-09.cfm)
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<<You are talking about Reagans peace dividend.>>
No, I was just speaking in general terms. I don't know if there was a real peace dividend or if this was just some rhetorical device.
::::::::::: Of course there was a peace dividend, it took the fom of ceaseing to increase the military budget every year , a was our habbit every year from 1938 till 1988.:::::::::::::
<<Yes we did reduce Military spending by more than 33% over the following decade and there was a concidental robust economy.>>
Was it just a reduction in military spending or was the money that would have gone into the military put somewhere else instead? Did the total overall spending levels remain the same, or were they reduced by the amount of the cuts in the military budget?
::::::::: As far as I know there has never ben a cut in total spending since Andrew Jackson was president , but the total size of the military was reduced sharply during the Bush 41 regime and was reduced some more during the Hillary and Bill Clinton Co-Presidency. The increases in Taxation during that period combined with decreases in military spending but didn't amount to a reduction in deficit , just a less than would have been debt , a debt that was smaller in purportion to income even as it still grew in absolute size. ::::::::
<<But every improvement becomes the new norm , we must not retreat to the pre-WWII tiny Army we kept at the ready for most of our history , unless our potential for enemys return to pre-WWII levels.>>
If you are thinking of China, I would think your problems with China could be resolved diplomatically by defining reasonable and fair spheres of influence, relieving both parties of the need to maintain vast military expenditures. Of your other potential enemies, I don't think any of them are even close to the pre-WWII levels of the Axis Powers in terms of manpower and armaments.
::::::::::::::Nor are we spending a comperable portion of our budget on the military as we did in response to the Axis , the military is a big prt of the present budget but it is a lessor part than social programs and is looseing ground. China has a long way to come till it has the military force we do , but they are increaseing their military budget prodigiously , perhaps they intend to catch up , this might not be a problem at all , we don't mind haveing strong freinds , and arn't they freindly?::::::::::::::::::
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is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?
Is citizenship in the U.S. a commodity?
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is citizenship in this country an non valued commodity?
Is citizenship in the U.S. a commodity?
Lets define "commodity?".
The time of my life is a commodity that I rent to my employer , so what isn't a commodity?
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Is citizenship in the U.S. a commodity?
Apparently so. People are willing to cheat and steal to obtain it. People are willing to risk life and limb to be granted this privilege. Some advocate making it easier to obtain. Others advocate making it more rare.
So let's kill two birds with one stone. Any illegals caught in the US wil automatically be inducted into the armed services and after 1 year training and two years active duty will be granted citizenship.
That lower the barrier enough for you?
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The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.
As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.
I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.
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The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.
As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.
I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.
Is it granted then that citizenship is the States, to define and to grant?
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Lets define "commodity?".
The time of my life is a commodity that I rent to my employer , so what isn't a commodity?
Is it your assertion then that citizenship something bought and sold for gain?
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Some advocate making it easier to obtain. Others advocate making it more rare.
Any examples? Who is advocating making citizenship easier to obtain? I'm guessing, just guessing mind you, that you mean me. And yet, I have not once said citizenship should be made easier to obtain. So either you mean someone else, or you're trying "the old misstate my arguments and then attack them technique of discussion." So which is it?
So let's kill two birds with one stone. Any illegals caught in the US wil automatically be inducted into the armed services and after 1 year training and two years active duty will be granted citizenship.
That lower the barrier enough for you?
I see no point in answering since I was not advocating making easier the attainment of citizenship. You seem to have changed discussions. Somehow you moved from immigration to citizenship. I suggest we would be better served by not conflating the two.
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Lets define "commodity?".
The time of my life is a commodity that I rent to my employer , so what isn't a commodity?
Is it your assertion then that citizenship something bought and sold for gain?
It can be , Roman citizenship was purchaseable outright even by people who never went there.
Our Citizenship seems to be easyer for the well heeled to get , even if it can't presently be purchased outright.
If a Government were to grant citizenship at auction , would this be wrong?
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If a Government were to grant citizenship at auction , would this be wrong?
Perhaps. Just out of curiosity, who is doing all this buying and selling U.S. citizenships? And what are they getting for it?
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The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.
As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.
I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.
Is it granted then that citizenship is the States, to define and to grant?
Depends. Are you referring to the wish to be a "citizen of the United States" or a "citizen of Georgia"?
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Heinlien
pretty good writer
very unfavorable toward pacifist
thinking pacifist are useless rich people refusing to see reality
forgot the name of that book
about a slave who got freed and live in a world that does not acknoeledge slavery exist
that kinda exist now also .
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Hmmm, don't remember that one. But, in Starship Troopers he advanced the concept that citizenship could not be obtained without service to the State. A friend of mine, Jerry Pournelle, who knew Heinlein quite well, said that Heinlein was very supportive of that concept (it was not just a concept he introduced into his book(s)).
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Professor, you don't happen to also know Larry Niven, do you? I really liked their book " A Mote in God's Eye." 20+ years ago now, it must be.
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No, I don't. He and Jerry have collaborated on many books. Thier latest is a sequel to their popular Inferno book and is aptly titled Inferno II (but the name may chnage). Jerry is also producing the next book in his Janissaries series, Mamelukes. Niven lately has produced a lot of short stories. see www.larryniven.org (http://www.larryniven.org).
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The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.
As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.
I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.
Is it granted then that citizenship is the States, to define and to grant?
Depends. Are you referring to the wish to be a "citizen of the United States" or a "citizen of Georgia"?
Hmmmmmmmm.... You could answer either way and make it interesting.
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The late Robert Heinlein, one of the best scifi writers of this century, stated that you could only gain citizenship if you served in the military.
As I recall, it was service to the state, not only military service.
I stand corrected; you are indeed correct.
Is it granted then that citizenship is the States, to define and to grant?
Depends. Are you referring to the wish to be a "citizen of the United States" or a "citizen of Georgia"?
Hmmmmmmmm.... You could answer either way and make it interesting.
A declarative not an interrogative. You are impriving, Padwan Learner.
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Heinlien
pretty good writer
very unfavorable toward pacifist
thinking pacifist are useless rich people refusing to see reality
forgot the name of that book
about a slave who got freed and live in a world that does not acknoeledge slavery exist
that kinda exist now also .
Citizen of the Galaxy is another example of RAH utilizing a classic narrative tradition and shaping it into something uniquely his own. The tale begins at a slave auction on the distant planet of Jubbul. Thorby is of indeterminate age and ancestry and his presence on the auction block brings only howls of derision from the usual buyers. The only one who offers a bid is Baslim, a one-eyed, one-legged beggar. His intention is to succor the boy and protect him until he is able to fend for himself, then he will be freed. There is nothing more despised in Baslim's mind than the institution of slavery.
http://www.templetongate.com/rahjuvie.htm
I musthave been 14 when I read that one , it is a good one .
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If a Government were to grant citizenship at auction , would this be wrong?
Perhaps. Just out of curiosity, who is doing all this buying and selling U.S. citizenships? And what are they getting for it?
It wouldn't be right to say that the Citizenship was for sale , but the process we use makes it a lot easyer for someone who can prove his ability to pay taxes , so the result is simular.
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It wouldn't be right to say that the Citizenship was for sale , but the process we use makes it a lot easyer for someone who can prove his ability to pay taxes , so the result is simular.
So, all this talk about buying and selling citizenship was not true? Okay.
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There is a huge market for forged documents that would give you all the necessary documentation needed to exercise citizenship rights without actual citizenship. Birth certificates, social security cards, drivers licenses etc.
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As a sidenote to the discussion, I never really grokked Heinlen's popularity. I tend to think he was vastly overrated. But that's just my opinion.
Apologies for the interruption.
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I like his books, particularly the "juvenile" ones like Between Planets, Starman Jones, Farnham's Feeehold, Podkayne of Mars, Starship Troopers, etc. His later ones, when his brain tumor became an issue, were weird like I Fear No Evil, Stranger in a Strange Land, etc.
As far as being voerrated, Heinlein won four Hugo Awards for his novels. In addition, fifty years after publication, three of his works were awarded "Retro Hugos" ? awards given retrospectively for years in which no Hugos had been awarded. He also won the first Grand Master Award given by the Science Fiction Writers of America for lifetime achievement.
Heck, he even developed the idea of the waterbed, and his detailed descriptions of it in three of his books later prevented others from patenting it!
In short, Robert Heinlein is usually identified, along with Isaac Asimov and Arthur C. Clarke, as one of the three masters of science fiction to arise in the so-called Golden Age of science fiction.
Overrated? Bah humbag, I say!
source: Wikipedia.
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At least credit Wikipedia when you quote from it...
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I think the wierd sex stuff started at glory road
that book might be his transition away from the juvy stories.
but no matter what he`s still a man of his time.
reading his books is good glimpse of the thinking of those times.
ex. glory road about the queen of the galaxy and how a guy couldn`t handle being of lower stature to her.
heilein couldn`t help write that the queen would prefer being subservient to him.
I like have spacesuit will travel
the technical detail of the suit was cool to me.
I like any books that explains stuff
probly why I like critchen
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At least credit Wikipedia when you quote from it...
Big wup. Get a grip.
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As to the original intent of this post, courting a bureaucratic nightmare, I would nonetheless favor a universal conscription (with the obvious exemptions) for each able-bodied legal resident of a certain age group, for a specified period, to work for the national interest as assigned by aptitude tests, need, desire, opportunity and volition in a wide range of endeavors, keeping the actual combat (but maybe not combat-support) positions for strict volunteers. BT is right: there is a cost to freedom, citizenship and the principles we hold dear.
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Miracles DO happen. We are in agreement!
What ages would you suggest?
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Big wup. Get a grip.
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Sorry i just don't feel like being sued because you can't be bothered giving credit where credit is due. So yes it is a big deal.