Obama throws Israel under the Bus

[BT]

So you want to keep playing the irrelevent deflective accusatory loop, rather than deal with the topic at hand and debate some serious issues regarding the ME peace process.  Sorry, count me out of that game

No i simply want you to quit making up crap as you go along, it isn't irrelevant to call you on a lie. It certainly is a deflection to not address your misstatements.

[sirs]

It's NOT a lie, when its either a mistake, as in when you 1st were claiming your nuke notion, nor a lie, when you WERE agreeing with BsB and his 67borders position

IT IS A DEFLECTION WHEN, AS I ACCURATELY REFERENCED JUST A BIT AGO, HOW YOU WANT THE FOCUS TO BE ON THIS, VS DEBATING THE ACTUAL PEACE PROCESS. 

NOTICE HOW YOU HAVE YET TO ADDRESS THAT, WHICH IS THE RELEVENT POINT TO THIS THREAD

[BT]

I have addressed the 67 borders. I am more against rolling them back than you are.

[Xavier_Onassis]

WHAT is the relevant point again?

[sirs]

Without any words to preface the 300lb gorilla-in-the-room IF factor, I have been constantly referencing, as far as being able to generate any lasting peace, between Israel and its neighbors, I'm led to have to assume that their (Bt's, BsB's, and Xo's) positions are one of Israel to shut up, and just live with the 2 state position, with that other state being one who's Government is run by a faction whose charter calls on the death of every living Jew.  Will throw you a few bones of land swapping, but you're just going to have to live with it

That's all I can assume, based on their non-responses and no-starter positions, like 67borders.  Perhaps they can better clarify themselves, in subsequent posts.  Should, at the very least, not the Palestinian leader stand before his people and say he is willing to accept an Israeli state, just as Netanyahu is saying he can accept a Palestinian one??

[sirs]

I have addressed the 67 borders. I am more against rolling them back than you are.

................and......................?

WHAT is the relevant point again?

That the 2nd party to the 2 state notion, has as its governing body, a charter that includes the death and destruction of the other state.

[BT]

................and......................?

and what?

[sirs]

oy

......going to try advocating a policy/plan that actually has a starting component to it?  1 that has some assemblance of reality built in?  Come on, take a chance

[Xavier_Onassis]

Gaza is a cramped combination slum and jail, where people have been confined for their entire lives to suffer poverty, deprivation and hopelessness. They have Israel to blame for this: these people were driven out of their homes by the Israeli Army in 1947 and left to rot in something quite like concentration camps for over 50 years. They have no nationality, they have no jobs, no prospects, nothing. They are not allowed to enter the West Bank, they have no seaport, no airport, no sewer system, electrical power is intermittent.

Why would they NOT want Israel to just "go away" and let them move back into their homes? Very few Gaza Palestinians actually fought the Israelis, as they had no organization or weapons. When armies can to "defend" their rights, they were chased away, and the Israelis prevented them from going home again.

There is a reason why they voted for Hamas. At the time of the elections, the two major parties were Fatah, a corrupt WB organization, and Hamas, affiliated with the mosque and therefore seen as more honest. Hamas candidates were younger, as are Gazans.

Keep in mind that Hamas rules Gaza because of Condi Rice's poor intelligence, perhaps fed to her by the Israelis, who actually WANT Gaza and the WB to be divided, because two weak enemies are better than one stronger one. Condi thought democracy would bring peace and tranquility and unification. She was wrong, wrong, wrong.

If you were a Gazan, what would YOU do?

[sirs]

So basically, Xo's making my point, with all his rationalization efforts (along with the obligatory dig at Rice)....Israel should just shut up, and so what if the state that is allowed to expand and grow next to them has as its governning body a charter to kill every Jew, and destroy the state of Israel.  Israel just needs to accept it, and in fact, give them more land to do it from.

Is that about right?

[BT]

Israel is free to negotiate with whom and how it sees fit.

The question is do we need to continue to subsidize them while they are looking for the perfect partner?

If so why?

[Xavier_Onassis]

I am simply positing a question: if YOU were a Gazan, what would YOU offer the Israelis? They have taken everything from your people and locked up everyone you know in a miserable prison. What would YOU ask of them in return for not wanting them to just vanish?

Gazans are not that different from anyone else.

Keep in mind that no one lived in any of Hitler's camps for more than six years. Gazans have been locked up for nearly 60 years. And the only crime most of them committed was to be in the way of the Zionists: people convinced that God has awarded their land to them after 1000 years or so.

If you were a Gazan, what would YOU do?

[sirs]

Israel is free to negotiate with whom and how it sees fit.

The question is do we need to continue to subsidize them while they are looking for the perfect partner?

If so why?

Actually that's a completely different question than the one I posed, and still has yet to be addresed, outside of whatever Israel wants to do, they can.  But oh well. 

No, we don't need to subsidize anyone in the region.     

[sirs]

I am simply positing a question: if YOU were a Gazan, what would YOU offer the Israelis?

Do they want peace??  THAT IS THE QUESTION.  If they want peace, the start is going to HAVE TO remove from their Hamas governing charter, the destruction of Israel.  That is the other "state", in this supposed 2 state plan

And until there are clear articulated repercussions that will rain down upon anyone attacking Israel from those lands in the West Bank & Golan, I see no need for Israel to consider anything that would provide even more land for those folks to attack a smaller Israel from.  It defies logic to even consider it, despite your skewed perception of what has befallen the Palestinians, by those supposed evil Jews

[Xavier_Onassis]

What should Israel off for them to remove the statement from their charter?

The Gazans have nothing to offer but this and perhaps a promise to try to keep hotheads from sending small rockets into  Israel.

The ball is in Israel's court.

And no, I am not exaggerating the Gazan situation one bit.