Author Topic: Obama throws Israel under the Bus  (Read 128005 times)

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sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #240 on: May 25, 2011, 06:48:07 PM »
My pleasure.  You've convinced me that there can be no peace, not even a starting point.  That all this diplomatic sophistry is mere exercising of one's diaphragm & vocal cords, no more than that.

By all means, you've convinced me that Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to do, however way they wish, to take out Hamas, and any organization that supports the call for Israel's destruction & death to any Jewish people.  Nuclear if necessary

Iran best watch out now
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #241 on: May 25, 2011, 07:23:59 PM »
My pleasure.  You've convinced me that there can be no peace, not even a starting point.  That all this diplomatic sophistry is mere exercising of one's diaphragm & vocal cords, no more than that.

By all means, you've convinced me that Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to do, however way they wish, to take out Hamas, and any organization that supports the call for Israel's destruction & death to any Jewish people.  Nuclear if necessary

Iran best watch out now

Now yer talkin'

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #242 on: May 25, 2011, 07:29:24 PM »
...you've convinced me that Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to do, however way they wish, to take out Hamas, and any organization that supports the call for Israel's destruction & death to any Jewish people.  Nuclear if necessary

Iran best watch out now


Now yer talkin'

Looks like Eypt better, as well
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

BT

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #243 on: May 25, 2011, 07:32:10 PM »
?The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.? patton

Plane

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #244 on: May 26, 2011, 12:17:49 AM »
Something here reminds me of Dr. Strangeloves complaint about the Soviet doom weapon, the super threat doesn't work as a secret, it doesn't even work as an actuality unless the threat is quite credable.

This also reminds me of the sheriff in "Blazing Saddles" who escapes threat by taking himself hostage.

Israel already has Nukes (I believe) but who is the prospective victim? Hard to believe in any Israeli plan to use atomic bombs on short range weapons. It would be like a nuclear war between the counties of Connecticut.

If the Palestinians also had Atomic bombs (conceiveable I think) I would guess that they would also be loath to use them close to home.

The Israelis sponsor (us) has had Atom bombs from the first and Pakistan which is quite sympathetic to Palestine has has an Islamic bomb for two decades. I don't suspect the leaders of the USA nor Pakistan of having plans to clean the slate in the holy land.

But this doesn't mean that Mutual Assured Destruction couldn't work.

Israel's ability to resist attack depends a lot on having a friend in the US , the Palestinians ability to fight depends on friendly governments and extra government friends sympathetic because of a common religion and resistance to loosing Jerusalem from Islamic controll.

A more likely and more credable threat would be atomic bombs hidden in the important cites of the US and Pakistan , Saudi Arabia , Iran and Egypt.

Sponsors are unwilling to cut back on support to the fighters right now , because ceasing to support just one side is practically choosing victory for the other side, but if everyone involved could be sure that the reduction was mutual there could be a reduction of support targeted on belligerent capability.

  With threats that the American people and the Islamic peoples could believe real behind the effort the US and the combined sponsors of Palestine could be forced to throw less gas onto the fire. Reduced sponsorship of belligerence ought to cause reduced reliance on violence, and threatened sponsors would encourage better behavior, every way possible.

 Since Bombs would be detonated in a sponsors territory based on the behavior of the sponsored , a disinterested party  would have to be sworn in as a credable and trustworthy avenger.  Maybe the UN? Maybe the Government of China?

Henny

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Why Palestinians Have Time on Their Side
« Reply #245 on: May 26, 2011, 03:14:41 AM »
Why Palestinians Have Time on Their Side
By Jeffrey Goldberg May 25, 2011 2:28 AM GMT+0300

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-05-24/why-palestinians-have-time-on-their-side.html

If I were a Palestinian (and, should there be any confusion on this point, I am not), and if I were the sort of Palestinian who believed that Israel should be wiped off the map, then I would be quite pleased with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu?s performance before Congress this morning.

I would applaud Netanyahu for including no bold initiatives that would have suggested to the world that Israel is alive to the threat posed by its seemingly eternal occupation of the West Bank.

In fact, I would make support for Netanyahu the foundation stone of my patient campaign to dismantle the world?s only majority-Jewish country. I would support not only Netanyahu, but the far-right parties of his governing coalition, the parties that seem uninterested in democracy and obsessed with planting more Jewish settlements on the West Bank.

The settlements would have my wholehearted backing. I would encourage my brother Palestinians to help build settlements at a brisk pace. I would ask the Israelis to build an even more intricate system of bypass roads on the West Bank that would connect Jewish settlements to one another and to Israel proper. I would ask my ostensible allies among the Arab nations to provide interest-free mortgages to Israelis in Tel Aviv, so they could move out to the settlements for some fresh air and a little more yard. And, while I was at it, I would insist that my leaders abort their campaign for United Nations recognition of an independent state of Palestine.

Entanglement

My goal: To hopelessly, ineradicably, entangle the two peoples wedged between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea.

Then I would wait as the Israeli population on the West Bank grew, and grew some more. I would wait until 2017, 50 years after the Six Day War, which ended with Israel in control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. I would go before the UN and say the following:

"We, the Palestinians, no longer seek a homeland of our own. We recognize the permanence of Israeli occupation, the dominion of the Israeli military and the power of the Israeli economy. So we would like to join them. In the 50 years since the beginning of the ?temporary? occupation, we have seen hundreds of thousands of Israelis build communities near our own communities. We admire what they have built, and the system of laws that governs their lives. Unlike them, many of us live under Israeli military law but have no say in choosing the Israelis who rule us. So we no longer want statehood. We simply want the vote."

And this, of course, would bring about the end of Israel.

Apartheid State

(IMO from Henny: They're already almost all the way there... but also IMO, this is still a great commentary.)

Either the Jews of Israel would grant the Palestinians the vote, at which point their country would lose its Jewish majority and its identity as a refuge for the Jewish people, or it would deny them the vote, and become an apartheid state. The latter option is untenable, of course: Many Jewish Israelis would be repulsed by this thought; other nations that already consider Israel a pariah would now have just cause; and Israel would lose its last remaining friend, the U.S., because no American -- including and especially young American Jews -- would identify with a country reminiscent of pre-Mandela South Africa.

If Netanyahu had been thinking strategically, he might have realized this when he went before Congress this morning. And he might have done something bold: Acknowledge that the age of Jewish settlement is over. He did mention, fleetingly, that certain settlements would be set adrift in a theoretical peace deal. But he seemed unaware that he was delivering a speech that could easily have been given 10 years ago.

It is not 10 years ago. Israel is now 10 years closer to achieving full pariah status. And -- in part because the Palestinians lack the patience to pursue a strategy of gradual, irreversible entanglement -- a moment of truth for Israel is rapidly approaching.

UN Vote

The Palestinians are seeking a UN vote in September on independence. They will prevail in the General Assembly, though not in the Security Council. President Barack Obama, with whom Netanyahu just picked a fight, will have to spend a good amount of political capital to stymie the Palestinian campaign, even though he appears to have nothing but contempt for Netanyahu?s lack of vision.

But American opposition to this unilateral declaration will be in many ways immaterial. Israel will soon enough be seen by most of the world as the occupier not of disputed territory but of a foreign country. The Palestinians will wake up to find that a General Assembly vote did not, in fact, give them true independence. And then there will be an explosion.

The Palestinians who are watching Yemenis, Libyans and Syrians fighting for their freedom will soon be inspired to once again take up their own fight.

Existential Threats

Netanyahu, who understands the existential threat posed by Iran, does not seem to understand the nature of this other existential threat. His five predecessors as prime minister -- including Ariel Sharon, whose heart did not bleed for Palestinians -- understood it. President Obama understands it, too.

"The number of Palestinians living west of the Jordan River is growing rapidly and fundamentally reshaping the demographic realities of both Israel and the Palestinian territories," Obama told members of AIPAC, the pro-Israel lobbying group, on May 22. "This will make it harder and harder, without a peace deal, to maintain Israel as both a Jewish state and a democratic state."

An eternal truth of Middle East politics is that the Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Lately, though, this has become an Israeli specialty. If Israel misses the chance this year to set the Palestinians on a course toward independence, it will jeopardize its future as a Jewish democracy.

A Magnanimous Vision

Yes, it will be dangerous for Israel to return to its 1967 borders, or anything close. The potential merger between Hamas and the more moderate Fatah is cause for despair, but it should spur Netanyahu to try to split the moderates from the radicals by offering a magnanimous vision for peace. He should realize that it will be fatal for Israel to maintain control over millions of Palestinians who seek what the people of Yemen and Libya and Syria seek: freedom.

Absent any hope of progress, the Palestinians will do what they can to undermine Israel. But all they have to do is wait.

(Jeffrey Goldberg is a Bloomberg View columnist. The opinions expressed are his own.)

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #246 on: May 26, 2011, 03:48:31 AM »
It's ok Miss Henny....I've been shown the light....there will be no peace, I'm afraid.   :'(    However I'll keep you and your family in my prayers for protection, always
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #247 on: May 26, 2011, 04:13:15 AM »
It's ok Miss Henny....I've been shown the light....there will be no peace, I'm afraid.   :'(    However I'll keep you and your family in my prayers for protection, always

You know, there is a chance for peace.

I would like to present some recommended reading for my friends here. One sided? Yes - but the side you don't see in your news. The other side of the story.

Our Last Best Chance: The Pursuit of Peace in a Time of Peril
by King Abdullah II of Jordan

http://www.amazon.com/Our-Last-Best-Chance-Pursuit/dp/0670021717


Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #248 on: May 26, 2011, 10:12:46 AM »
Jeffrey Goldberg has explained quite well why it is that Netanyahu is a dolt, as well as a jerk.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #249 on: May 26, 2011, 11:23:36 AM »
Jeffrey Goldberg has explained quite well why it is that Netanyahu is a dolt, as well as a jerk.

yeah it's all Netanyahu...after all...there has been so much peace before BiBi!
and yeah Netanyahu is the bad guy to be cursed while people targeting schools are ignored!
 ::)
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #250 on: May 26, 2011, 11:24:24 AM »
It's ok Miss Henny....I've been shown the light....there will be no peace, I'm afraid.   :'(    However I'll keep you and your family in my prayers for protection, always

You know, there is a chance for peace.

It's been presented that its just not possible outside of a non-viable 3rd party nuclear deterrent.  And since that'll never, nor should it, be plausible, I'm afraid there will be no functional peace.  Israel has the green light to do whatever they need to, I'm afraid     :-\

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #251 on: May 26, 2011, 11:29:54 AM »
No one is ignoring the dangerous toys that Hamas very occasionally hits a target with. However, Netanyahu is the one responsible for preventing meaningful negotiations with Fatah and therefore when his stalling plan succeeds, what Goldberg says will happen, will actually happen, and Netanyahu will get the blame and no one will remember the stupid rockets, which are an ineffective and stupid move on part of Hamas.

Israel says it will not talk with Hamas, but everyone and his Jack Russell terrier in Israel knows that secret talks with Hamas have been going on for years between Israel and Hamas.

All Israel can do is stall, stall, stall, until it is become an apartheid state or cease being a democratic one.

Eretz Israel as a Jewish state is a transitory affair.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #252 on: May 26, 2011, 11:37:44 AM »
Israel can stand on its head, and and do nothing.....that doesn't prevent Fatah. Hamas, and the Palestinian people from getting their act together, and getting Hamas to remove from its charter the death of Israel

There will be no peace, when in a 2 state scenario, one of the parties, has as its governing mandate, the death of the other state.  Netanyahu did not put a gun to the Palestinians head to elect Hamas.  Nor did Rice.  So you can stop with the ignorant accusations that its somehow their fault Hamas is a governing arm of the Palestinians

Sorry, this effort to claim that its the Israeli's fault that talks have "stalled" is pretty bogus from the get go.  The starting point is with the Palestinians, not to mention the Arab neighbors.  And since Bt has made it abundantly clear that that won't happen, there'll be no peace
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #253 on: May 26, 2011, 12:47:16 PM »
And since Bt has made it abundantly clear that that won't happen, there'll be no peace

======================================
BT is in charge of this now?

Does he know this?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Obama throws Israel under the Bus
« Reply #254 on: May 26, 2011, 01:14:26 PM »
Actually, the Palestinians are in charge, and yes, he knows this
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle