Obama throws Israel under the Bus

[Christians4LessGvt]

California is US territory by virtue of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. Can you tell me the name of equivalent treaty for the West Bank?

BT maybe they could use the same genocidal tactics and force some so called "treaties" or
"agreements" like your forefathers that screwed and murdered the American Indians
with crimes against humanity so you could enjoy the good life you and your more recent
family have enjoyed over the last couple of centuries? Just like just about every other
place on earth where people ran someone, some tribe, or some people off land they
wanted. How do you know the people of the "West Bank" didn't run somebody
else off that land at some time in ancient history long ago?
When does "righteous history" begin?
Does it begin once you and XO are all warm & comfy on your "stolen lands"
and then can start condemning others?

[BT]

BT maybe they could use the same genocidal tactics and force some so called "treaties" or
"agreements" like your forefathers that screwed and murdered the American Indians
with crimes against humanity so you could enjoy the good life you and your more recent
family have enjoyed over the last couple of centuries?

Both sides of my family immigrated to the US in the 1880's. Doubt they did much pioneering. Didn't own any slaves either. My dads side started a bakery in Central PA and my moms side worked the docks in NYC.

And if you have been paying attention, i am not for Israel returning to pre67 borders. That is Sirs, on condition of a pinky swear that Hamas no longer hates Jews or some nonsensical position, before Israel enters peace negotiations.

The Golan Heights should be a separate discussion with Syria. I think there is room for some land swaps in the West Bank that might protect both countries interests. And remember i'm the one who said that if Israel or Palestine break the peace they both should be nuked. Enough already.

[sirs]

BT maybe they could use the same genocidal tactics and force some so called "treaties" or
"agreements" like your forefathers that screwed and murdered the American Indians
with crimes against humanity so you could enjoy the good life you and your more recent
family have enjoyed over the last couple of centuries?

And if you have been paying attention, i am not for Israel returning to pre67 borders. That is Sirs, on condition of a pinky swear that Hamas no longer hates Jews or some nonsensical position, before Israel enters peace negotiations.

Subtracting the misrepresentation of merely "stop hating the jews" nonsense, that was based on the idea that folks like the International community & the U.S. would have the balls to seriously enforce any infringement of any peace arrangements, after a starting point of the considered Palestinian state tangibly removing from the Hamas governing charter, the death of the Israeli state.  Hardly some twisted rationalization that Hamas stop hating Jews. 

But since you've convicned me that there can be no such peace in this 2 state arrangement, then Israel needs to hang on to every crop & cut of land necessary to better defend themselves from

And thanks again for not addressing the rather simple questions posed.  Provides some serious context to this who debate

The Golan Heights should be a separate discussion with Syria.

But its not, now is it, as BsB referenced

I think there is room for some land swaps in the West Bank that might protect both countries interests.

Not when the other's country's/state's intent is the destruction of the other state

And remember i'm the one who said that if Israel or Palestine break the peace they both should be nuked.

As well as a non starter

Enough already.

That's an understatement

[BT]

But its not, now is it, as BsB referenced

I don't see why not. Is syria doing the negotiations for Palestine?

Subtracting the misrepresentation of merely "stop hating the jews" nonsense, that was based on the idea that folks like the International community & the U.S. would have the balls to seriously enforce any infringement of any peace arrangements, after a starting point of the considered Palestinian state tangibly removing from the Hamas governing charter, the death of the Israeli state.  Hardly some twisted rationalization that Hamas stop hating Jews. 

My bad. They can still hate the Jews. They just have cross their heart swear that they don't wish for the destruction of Israel and all will be right with the world. Sounds like a Beatles song.

But since you've convicned me that there can be no such peace in this 2 state arrangement, then Israel needs to hang on to every crop & cut of land necessary to better defend themselves from

I agree, it's always better to be told what you will get versus negotiating to make sure you get what you need.

And thanks again for not addressing the rather simple questions posed.  Provides some serious context to this who debate

Oh did you produce the  treaty with the Palestinians and Jordanians that would be the equivalent of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.  Eh? You know the one where the Palestinians retained land ownership the same way the Mexicans did when California was ceded to the US or where the Palestinians were compensated for their land like in California? Or where Jordan received compensation for the land lost, like Mexico did?

[sirs]

since you've convicned me that there can be no such peace in this 2 state arrangement, then Israel needs to hang on to every crop & cut of land necessary to better defend themselves from

I agree, it's always better to be told what you will get versus negotiating to make sure you get what you need.

How is hanging on to what you have, being told what you will get??  You have that bassackwards, where everyone else seems to be trying to tell Israel what it will get.  Sorry, it's not going to work that way.  You convinced me of that. 

What they "need" is the Arab nations to stop using the Palestinians as fodder in trying to remove israel from the region.

What they "need" is a starting point, in which the 2nd state in this supposed 2 state arrangement doesn't have as a governing charter, the destruction of the other state
 

And thanks again for not addressing the rather simple questions posed.  Provides some serious context to this who debate

Oh did you produce the  treaty with the Palestinians and Jordanians that would be the equivalent of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

No, that was your tangential deflective question, that never addressed my question.  Nice try, though

[BT]

I'll make it simple for you to understand. Israel can keep the lands when they enter negotiations. You are saying they shouldn't bother because Hamas hasn't pinky sweared that they won't wish for the end of Israel.

Did Reagan refuse to meet with Gorby because Gorby didn't renounce Khrushchev for saying the USSR would bury us?

No. Because he was confident that he had the winning hand in any negotiation. You must not think that the case with Israel. But if Israel doesn't hold the chips, isn't Palestine better off just waiting for world opinion to completely turn against Israel. Maybe a peaceful march in Jerusalem that turns into another Tienanmen Square. Maybe an overreaction on Israel's part that forces even its most rabid supporters in the US to take a second look at what is going on.

Tick Tock.

[sirs]

I'll keep it even more simpler.  When the 2nd state, in this 2 state utopia, takes out its mandate to destroy the other state, then they (Israel) can actually enter negotiations. 

Why would ANY nation give up more land to a neighbor that's calling on the destruction of that nation??  "Here, we know you want to kill us....let's give you more land closer to us, to do just that, but you'll promise not to it, ok?" 

What a great negotiating tactic, especially given your conclusion, that swayed me even, that the Hamas wing of the Palestinian government will never stop in their agenda of ridding the region of Israel       

The winning hand here is that the truth on Israel's side.  Yours & Xo's, inability to simply answer my questions helps to highlight that point

[BT]

I'll keep it even more simpler.  When the 2nd states, in this 2 state utopia, takes out its mandate to destroy the other state, then they can actually enter negotiations. 

Of course , the simple response is that your precondition is a demand for a meaningless statement in order to have Israel come to the table. And of course it gives Israel an excuse to delay the inevitable negotiations that sooner or later must come. Perhaps at a time not to Israels advantage.

And if you have any reading skills whatsoever, you will notice that i did not call for Israel to give up any land.

[sirs]

And if you noticed, you've convinced me, there will be no peace.  Best Israel keeps every crop & cut of land, OF THEIRS, they can to better defend themselves from

[BT]

And  they will have to defend, since i doubt your precondition for negotiations will be met and whatever chance for a favorable peace will slip away.

Picture this: a million youth from all around the middle east march on Jerusalem, peacefully, Ghandiesque and MLK non violent all at one time. What is the IDF going to do?

Tick Tock

[sirs]

And  they will have to defend

That's pretty much been the issue, since the get to.  And since there's no plans on anyone else ceasing aide to the Palestinians and Arab nations surrounding Israel, I have no problem with our continued military aide to Israel.  Anything to better their defense

since i doubt your precondition for negotiations will be met and whatever chance for a favorable peace will slip away.

Doesn't matter about my precondition.  You've convinced me, there will be no peace

[BT]

Doesn't matter about my precondition.

on that we agree.

[Christians4LessGvt]

Both sides of my family immigrated to the US in the 1880's.
Doubt they did much pioneering. Didn't own any slaves either.
My dads side started a bakery in Central PA and my moms side worked the docks in NYC.

That's interesting BT....but in my opinion....we (whites) still reaped indirect rewards
from slavery and Indian genocide whether we or our relatives were a part of the
actual crimes or not. In fact although I do not think it is the best strategy, that's
basically what affirmative action is about....allowing "catch up" due to past crimes.

Although most Whites in the United States never owned a slave there is still
a "collective guilt" over slavery whether one agrees with it or not.

And in my opinion whites whether they owned slaves or not still did in fact benefit
indirectly in so many ways due to slavery and the Indian genocide.
Whites had access to better jobs, better healthcare, better nutrition, better education,
better housing for centuries at other's expense....and thus white's prospered
and that is in my mind an undeniable factor in who and where we are today.
Whites didn't have it "easy", but they generally had it "easier" than Blacks/Indians.

I am not saying that is the only reason white's prospered but it is one piece of a puzzle.

You can't deny people (Blacks/Indians) healthcare, property, education, housing,
jobs, voting for centuries and then expect pooof the damage to be gone and claim
"well I never owned a slave...so I just cant understand why they continue to lag behind
and it's not my problem".

When you're family immigrated in the 1880's they started a bakery in PA....that for all
practical purposes was not an option for Blacks....they also had access to land that
people had been "run off of"......so indirectly even-though I am sure your family
worked very hard and deserved what they got....they still got a "head start" solely
on the color of their skin/race/background....in other words...benefit at the expense of others.

Again....I am just saying....that our past....plays a real part in who we all are today.

[sirs]

Doesn't matter about my precondition.

on that we agree.

Right.....because since there can be no peace, why even entertain the idea of a starting point to any favorable peace

[BT]

Both sides of my family immigrated to the US in the 1880's.
Doubt they did much pioneering. Didn't own any slaves either.
My dads side started a bakery in Central PA and my moms side worked the docks in NYC.

That's interesting BT....but in my opinion....we (whites) still reaped indirect rewards
from slavery and Indian genocide whether we or our relatives were a part of the
actual crimes or not. In fact although I do not think it is the best strategy, that's
basically what affirmative action is about....allowing "catch up" due to past crimes.

Although most Whites in the United States never owned a slave there is still
a "collective guilt" over slavery whether one agrees with it or not.

And in my opinion whites whether they owned slaves or not still did in fact benefit
indirectly in so many ways due to slavery and the Indian genocide.
Whites had access to better jobs, better healthcare, better nutrition, better education,
better housing for centuries at other's expense....and thus white's prospered
and that is in my mind an undeniable factor in who and where we are today.
Whites didn't have it "easy", but they generally had it "easier" than Blacks/Indians.

I am not saying that is the only reason white's prospered but it is one piece of a puzzle.

You can't deny people (Blacks/Indians) healthcare, property, education, housing,
jobs, voting for centuries and then expect pooof the damage to be gone and claim
"well I never owned a slave...so I just cant understand why they continue to lag behind
and it's not my problem".

When you're family immigrated in the 1880's they started a bakery in PA....that for all
practical purposes was not an option for Blacks....they also had access to land that
people had been "run off of"......so indirectly even-though I am sure your family
worked very hard and deserved what they got....they still got a "head start" solely
on the color of their skin/race/background....in other words...benefit at the expense of others.

Again....I am just saying....that our past....plays a real part in who we all are today.

Sorry, i don't do group guilt. In 1880's PA if a black family had a kitchen and oven they had the same advantage my ancestors had.