Author Topic: Question  (Read 10977 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Question
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2011, 11:30:43 AM »
So do you think that the money changer episode was anti-Semetic?

I imagine that Jesus was a champion of the poorer Jews from the small towns and farms who was enraged that the moneychangers in the Temple were overcharging for their money changing and sacrificial animal selling monopoly.

I don't think that "supporting" a government was the way that Jesus would have thought of the Roman government. The deal was pretty well understood: those with Roman citizenship were first-class citizens and had a few rights others did not have: everyone else was seen by the Romans more or less as a farmer regards his livestock: if you obeyed the Romans and paid your taxes, they left you alone, unless you were in their way. Otherwise, you would be punished as an example to everyone else that the Romans had complete power. Crucifixion was painful, it took forever to die, and was ideal as a way of convincing rebellious subjects to comply.

Jesus did not want to be crucified, he only accepted it as what he understood was necessary to spread his gospel. At the moment in which he was questioned about "rendering unto Caesar" he was not ready or was unaware of the necessity of his crucifixion.

Together with the ritual cannibalism of the Last Supper and the sacrifice of Jesus, this was a powerful message to his followers, and combined with the Resurrection, it is how the story of Jesus survived and the tales of many other would be prophets did not. Of course, Paul was essential to spreading the word. It was effective because it incorporated religious symbolism of many of the religions extant at the time. Cannibalism, even ritual cannibalism is clearly unkosher. Drinking any sort of blood is about as trayf as one can get.
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Christians4LessGvt

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Re: Question
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2011, 11:52:50 AM »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

Michael Tee

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Re: Question
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2011, 12:04:20 PM »
<<So do you think that the money changer episode was anti-Semetic?>>

I wrote the last bit tongue-in-cheek and had a lot of fun writing it.  I thought it was hilarious.  Only the first part (about the Jewish prophetic tradition and the jeremiads) had any serious intent.

I think the money-changer episode was about as anti-Semitic as the demands of the Wall Street Occupation for the banks to get out of the government, in other words, not at all anti-Semitic, although it's been used by anti-Semites for two thousand years now to condemn the Jews.  The usual take on the topic (Jesus driving the money-changers out of the Temple with a whip) has been the subject of at least one classical painting by El Greco and by others as well IIRC.  There's a powerful juxtaposition of imagery (the Temple and the money-changers) which speaks to one of the anti-Semites' favourite slanders, "Their God is money," or "They worship Mammon."

Kramer

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Re: Question
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2011, 12:08:12 PM »
<<So do you think that the money changer episode was anti-Semetic?>>

I wrote the last bit tongue-in-cheek and had a lot of fun writing it.  I thought it was hilarious.  Only the first part (about the Jewish prophetic tradition and the jeremiads) had any serious intent.

I think the money-changer episode was about as anti-Semitic as the demands of the Wall Street Occupation for the banks to get out of the government, in other words, not at all anti-Semitic, although it's been used by anti-Semites for two thousand years now to condemn the Jews.  The usual take on the topic (Jesus driving the money-changers out of the Temple with a whip) has been the subject of at least one classical painting by El Greco and by others as well IIRC.  There's a powerful juxtaposition of imagery (the Temple and the money-changers) which speaks to one of the anti-Semites' favourite slanders, "Their God is money," or "They worship Mammon."

In other words you made a joke and XO fell for it... XO, you crack me up you big dummy!

Michael Tee

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Re: Question
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2011, 12:16:42 PM »
XO can speak for himself, but (a) not getting a joke doesn't automatically equate to being a "big dummy" and (b) sometimes when somebody doesn't get the joke, it means that the joke wasn't really all that much of a joke.

I'm kind of wondering whether YOU would have gotten the joke if I hadn't mentioned that it was a joke.

Kramer

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Re: Question
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2011, 12:28:55 PM »
XO can speak for himself, but (a) not getting a joke doesn't automatically equate to being a "big dummy" and (b) sometimes when somebody doesn't get the joke, it means that the joke wasn't really all that much of a joke.

I'm kind of wondering whether YOU would have gotten the joke if I hadn't mentioned that it was a joke.

The threshold for me is less than XO since he claims to be a gifted intellectual.

It's like this:

We all know Bush was a dummy and not qualified for the job so nobody was surprised when his presidency was about a 6 on a scale of 1-10.

But Obama was the smartest guy in the world, the gifted one, the best of the best but then we all find out all he does is talk, no action, no follow through and no ability. Now we find out that he's a big fat zero and full of shit. I think XO is as smart and accomplished and full of it just like the guy he voted for back in 2008. In other words Obama and XO are full of shit and have visions of grandiose. The emperors have no cloths. XO has been pretending to be a gifted teacher for the last 35 years and Obama has been pretending to be presidential for about the last 3 years.

Michael Tee

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Re: Question
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2011, 01:31:58 PM »
Yet XO makes more sense than 99% of the other posters in this group.  Go figure.

Kramer

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Re: Question
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2011, 01:37:09 PM »
Yet XO makes more sense than 99% of the other posters in this group.  Go figure.

That coming from a guy that thinks the protesters are right and XO having voted for the worst president in this nations history. Not a good batting average on insight, common sense, intuition, and good choices.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Question
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2011, 01:45:18 PM »
In other words Obama and XO are full of shit and have visions of grandiose(sic). The emperors have no cloths (sic).

===========================================
Yeah, formidable competition from Kramer.

I realized from your commentary on "hook-nosed Jews" that you were being humorous. I have seen the paintings you mention, and they are anti-Semetic, of course, but the episode in the Gospels seems to be more of an expression of anger of Jesus, who was from the backwoods of Galilee, against the money changers of the Temple who were using religious dogma to profit from a monopoly.

Obama is trying to do a good job, and has been stopped at every turn by the Republican'ts who only want his downfall and have said so from the start. They do not want this country to succeed. I do and so does Obama.

I say, May God rot the Republican Party, the Tea Party and all their Lumpenproletarian cheerleaders.


"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Question
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2011, 01:47:45 PM »
Kramer, you have no common sense, good judgment, insight or intuition, and show no signs of excelling at anything except being annoying and ignorant to a fault.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Michael Tee

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Re: Question
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2011, 02:11:20 PM »
<<Obama is trying to do a good job, and has been stopped at every turn by the Republican'ts who only want his downfall and have said so from the start. They do not want this country to succeed. I do and so does Obama.>>

How's the country going to "succeed" when it's led by a President who murders his fellow citizens without due process of law, effectively shitting all over the Constitution?  Who attacks Libya without any Congressional authorization, again shitting all over the Constitution?  The guy's a former law professor, yet he argues that he can't prosecute torturers DESPITE THE OBLIGATION TO PROSECUTE IMPOSED BY UNCAT, A BINDING LAWFUL TREATY OBLIGATION, on the excuse that such a prosecution would be "looking backward!"  What criminal prosecution in the world doesn't have to "look backward?"

The protestors occupying Wall Street are starting to see what you still don't - - that Obama is part of the problem.  You can't keep electing the same shills for the same corporate paymasters, and somehow expect that this time, now, things are finally going to be different.  That is just crazy.  The Republicans and the Democrats are both getting their water from the same well.   Re-electing Obama won't change a God-damned thing.  Cain is actually the better choice because he will fuck things up worse than Obama ever could.  Things have to get worse before they can become better.  Think of Cain as GW Bush II.  It's only when the country is driven to the brink of ruin that any real change can come about.

Kramer

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Re: Question
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2011, 02:22:31 PM »
Obama is trying to do a good job, and has been stopped at every turn by the Republican'ts

I guess you forgot Obama had a Democrat controlled House & Senate for 2 straight years and passed stimulus bills and healthcare without any Republican help and the Republicans weren't able to stop them.

And your point is what?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Question
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2011, 02:37:52 PM »
  It's only when the country is driven to the brink of ruin that any real change can come about.

===================================================
Now there's a thought. Elect Hitler, because the utter destruction of the Reich must occur before the New Germany can arise: that seems to be your message. I would prefer not to be in Dresden or Berlin for the utter destruction part.

I won't be voting for Cain. Sorry.

I don't agree with everything Obama has done, but I feel he is better by far than McCain would have been, and if not for the obstructionists, I think we would be better off than we are.

I blame the conservative Democrats for failing to approve of Obama's program, notably health care, for not getting more done the first two years. Obama lacked clout. He was not Lyndon Johnson, he was not Hillary Clinton. I would have preferred either to him, but they were not running.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Kramer

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Re: Question
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2011, 02:45:42 PM »
  It's only when the country is driven to the brink of ruin that any real change can come about.

===================================================
Now there's a thought. Elect Hitler, because the utter destruction of the Reich must occur before the New Germany can arise: that seems to be your message. I would prefer not to be in Dresden or Berlin for the utter destruction part.

I won't be voting for Cain. Sorry.

I don't agree with everything Obama has done, but I feel he is better by far than McCain would have been, and if not for the obstructionists, I think we would be better off than we are.

I blame the conservative Democrats for failing to approve of Obama's program, notably health care, for not getting more done the first two years. Obama lacked clout. He was not Lyndon Johnson, he was not Hillary Clinton. I would have preferred either to him, but they were not running.

When did Bush have a Republican controlled House & Senate? He didn't and the Democrats obstructed.

So your point is what? Oh I get it you were just sniveling like a baby (like your boy president does) because some people have a different set of principals & character than you.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Question
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2011, 02:47:36 PM »
You are incapable, as ever, of admitting to see the point because you are both deliberately annoying as well as a total imbecile.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."