And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks

[sirs]

Because this isn't about Isreal (unless of course you're on board with the idea of destroying Israel), it's about Iraq/Iran...

Sirs, you're the one who keeps bringing the Jews and Israel into it.

No, actually that'd be the President of Iran.  He's the one on record proclaiming a Hitler-like mentality of ridding the region of Israel

But you're right in this manner, this is the crux of the matter to you ... Israel.  Apparently in your mind, Israel is as bad, if not worse than Iran.  So, if we can talk to Israel, consider it a significant partner & ally, then by God we can talk to Iran, right?

I am pragmatic. Technically, I see it as beside the point entirely because U.S. interests are so strongly tied in with Israel now. But in theory, you are correct.
[/quote]

Well, what do ya know     

Perhaps you can help me out here, as I haven't read any reports of the mass killings by Israelis, mass grave sites of Palestinians, Government declarations of how Israel is to rid the region of the Palestinian scurge, etc.  Quite the contrary in fact, as I see & read example after example of Arab/Palestinian/Persian homicide bombers targeting and killing as many innocent civilian men/women & children as they possibly can.   I hear of examples of Palestinian children being taught history that doesn't include Israel as being part of the region.  I see examples of rhetoric coming from Arab leaders,  concluding not their contempt, but active goal in ridding the region of Israel (read; ethnic clensing).  A certain Iranian president comes to mind

Sirs, that's because you don't see a damn thing... and that is not your own fault. Between the apartheid wall and the laws against the Palestinians, it is a slow purge.
[/quote]

Ahhhh, it's a slow purge.  One that doesn't leave any substantive trails of their nefarious plot to rid the region of Palestinians?  My apologies Miss Henny, but isn't the Palestinian population going up??  So how this can be called "ethnic clensing" is beyond me

What you're providing our examples of hard life, and yea, unfair foreign policy practicies, at the hands of Israel.  Perhaps if Israel weren't surrounded by nations and peoples intent on seeing it destroyed, as soon as it came into existance, I'd be far more sympathetic to your position.  What I don't see, which I still have yet to see you provide, is comparable rhetorc and public platform to that of Israeli's neighboring enemies, to help validate this notion of how evil Isreal is supposed to be.  In fact, i do recall reading how Israel was very sympathetic to Palestinians when they returned in the late 40's.  Until of course they began getting attacked from all sides.

Look. President Ahmadine... whatever is a royal ass. ....they are very powerful in the region. I believe - truly believe - that it would be foolish to do anything BUT talk to them.

So was Hitler.  And look what "talk" alone led to, there

You know what, I have an idea. If you and the Mrs. ever want to come visit the Holy Land and see some beautiful things, let me know. We have a guest apartment here that you can stay in, and we would be happy to be your own personal tour guides. During your visit, we'll tour through the West Bank and Gaza... maybe spend some time. Truly, something you will never forget Sirs. (And I am not being sarcastic, you are always welcome to visit!

I would welome the opportunity Miss Henny.  I sincerely would, and will keep this offer in mind, if we ever manage to make it out that way.   

[domer]

As an intellectual matter, I am willing to discuss the right of the Israelis to their land, that is, their right to resist resettlement by the Palestinians. As a matter of morality (and intellectual discourse), I am willing to address the creation of the State of Israel in historical perspective, encompassing the "mandate" spawned by the Holocaust and the details of the contested character of the Palestinian withdrawal from their former land, either abandonment or ouster, all occurring in a climate of war or threat thereof, and the "third-party liability" of the Europeans for their (the Palestinians') displacement, especially the responsibility of Germany itself. What I am not willing to do for the simple reason that it could ignite an anti-Semitism rivaling that of the Third Reich is to start a drumbeat of condemnation of Israel for policies MAYBE necessary to its survival that it would repudiate under normal circumstances.

[Henny]

But i am curious, if palestians are really Jordanians wouldn't Jordan be home?

I don't believe that it's the same thing. If you lived in a certain place for generations and were uprooted and tossed somewhere else, you might make a new home there, but it isn't the same thing. IMO.

And even if that is the case, does it make it OK to be forcibly relocated?

[Henny]

Ahhhh, it's a slow purge.  One that doesn't leave any substantive trails of their nefarious plot to rid the region of Palestinians?  My apologies Miss Henny, but isn't the Palestinian population going up??  So how this can be called "ethnic clensing" is beyond me

The Palestinians are procreating like bunnies... and THAT is the reason their population is going up. Their mortality rate is horrendous.

What I don't see, which I still have yet to see you provide, is comparable rhetorc and public platform to that of Israeli's neighboring enemies, to help validate this notion of how evil Isreal is supposed to be.

 

Could you clarify what information you're looking for?

In fact, i do recall reading how Israel was very sympathetic to Palestinians when they returned in the late 40's.  Until of course they began getting attacked from all sides.

I guess it was easy to take a position of sympathy when they were the ones who uprooted them all and disrupted the entire region.

So was Hitler.  And look what "talk" alone led to, there

Why does every discussion about world leaders wind up using Hitler as an example? Is it because of the Holocaust thing that you've made this comparison?

I would welome the opportunity Miss Henny.  I sincerely would, and will keep this offer in mind, if we ever manage to make it out that way.   

The door is always open! 

[sirs]

The Palestinians are procreating like bunnies... and THAT is the reason their population is going up. Their mortality rate is horrendous.

So, obviously the "slow purge" technique to ethnic clensing isn't working.  Or was the "clensing" reference a bit of some hyperbole?

What I don't see, which I still have yet to see you provide, is comparable rhetorc and public platform to that of Israeli's neighboring enemies, to help validate this notion of how evil Isreal is supposed to be.

 

Could you clarify what information you're looking for?

Public declarations by high ranking folks, declaring or even putting in some platform, the need to rid the region of Palestinians.  Perhaps some reference that Israel is the only land God is allowing in that region, all others must vacate.  Stuff as crazy as what the Iranian President says to validate the notion he's just as smart and as rational to "talk" to as it is to talk to Israel

In fact, i do recall reading how Israel was very sympathetic to Palestinians when they returned in the late 40's.  Until of course they began getting attacked from all sides.

I guess it was easy to take a position of sympathy when they were the ones who uprooted them all and disrupted the entire region.

Then your beef is with the UN, not Israel

Why does every discussion about world leaders wind up using Hitler as an example? Is it because of the Holocaust thing that you've made this comparison?

That, and the comparable mentality of the leaders being discussed, as their rhetoric is pretty much the same, as it relates to Israel

I would welome the opportunity Miss Henny.  I sincerely would, and will keep this offer in mind, if we ever manage to make it out that way.   

The door is always open!  

AWESOME.  Thanks.  You'll be the 2nd person I tell, if we have the chance to make such a trip, with my better half being the 1st

[Henny]

OMG Sirs, these are some GOOD quotes. I know you (or someone else) will find a way to explain them away or discredit their validity, but they are well cited, some JUST AS CONTROVERSIAL (IMO) as the commentary coming from Iran.

"We must expel Arabs and take their places."
-- David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?' Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'Drive them out!"
-- Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

"[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."
-- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

"[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the 'Beasts,"' New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

"The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever."
-- Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

"(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
-- Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

"Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
-- Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

"If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force...."
-- Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

"I would have joined a terrorist organization."
-- Ehud Barak's response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha'aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours...Everything we don't grab will go to them."
-- Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

[sirs]

No no, you have some excellent quotes there Miss Henny.  Some of them definately near the levels of our esteemed Iranian President.  Context in full, when quotes are being used, definately would help here of course.

That said, I can assume you'd agree that many are just mean things to say, and not necessarily a mindset with the agenda of rooting all Palestinians from the region.  Some are even understandible, like Barak's.  He understandibly believed many Palestinians are terrorists, which many are.  And the idea he'd kill 2000 to bring an end to the war is no different than what we did to Japan, to end WWII.  If you knew you could stop the relentless killing, week after week, year after year, decade after decade, one could easily come to that defensive posture.  You'll note it wasn't a reference to kill all Palestinians, just rhetorical reference to 2000 in order to have no killing by either side, any longer.

But yes, some are pretty overt and over the top.  Good thing, those ones aren't running Israel any longer, otherwise, you'd definantely have a leg to stand on, as it relates to comparable irrational, if not insane rhetoric coming from a Government and it's people

[domer]

In what I'll term Henny-mania, our esteemed colleague from the Middle East spews acontextual rhetoric designed to inflame rather than illuminate. If you really want to illuminate rather than perform as an amen chorus, you might start by quoting Palestinian rhetoric and then by providing a balanced account of the critical 1947-1949 period in which the Palestinian exodus occurred. (Hint: there are competing histories.) Then, you should factor in the Holocaust on the morality of the entire episode.

[BT]

I don't believe that it's the same thing. If you lived in a certain place for generations and were uprooted and tossed somewhere else, you might make a new home there, but it isn't the same thing. IMO.

And even if that is the case, does it make it OK to be forcibly relocated?

In the case of the Palestinians, was the uprooting done by the British and then the UN or was it done after the fact by the Israeli's or was it perhaps both.

Perhaps the solution is the creation of a Palestinian state made up of territory from Israel, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria. Did i leave out any adjoining states?

[yellow_crane]

Henny, I have been meaning to tell you how much I appreciate the vast information regarding the Middle East.

People would know more about the Middle East if they watched media not coming from Katie, though I think everybody thinks if they listen to al jizirah they will be banned from listening to country music.

Before you, can't think of anybody who had much actual knowledge, though some banged the holocaust drum, one of the favorite guilt cannons of the JDL in dealing with critics.  (One thing about the Jews--they get SOME mileage using the ole guilt card.)

Thanks again for providing something real, you know, beyond the imitations of Frederic March doing William Jennings Bryant.

[yellow_crane]

I just want to know is how does one fabricate something so big as the holocaust?

I don`t recall anyone saying skin lamps are fake and don`t forget all those people who came to those camps after the end of the war seeing all those physical evidence.
and don`t forget it was not only jews.
quite afew other groups of people were in those camps

Yes, it is a poor argument to deny that the holocaust happened.

A better argument would stipulate that this is so, and then proceed to examine how much privledge the Jews are to be realistically extended.  Certainly actual guilt means nothing, since the innocent--those having absolutely no connection to it--as well as the guilty are under the same shaming finger from the Jews.  The Jews would have it as broadly spread as possible, in order to reap the benefits of its utilage.

I am certainly not against justice here.  For instance, with proper perspective and direction, the Jews could satisfy their blood revenge by clipping identified fascists right here at home--which tolls not only the bell of justice but also that of accurate irony.   

I think many leaders and many countries are a little weary of the pretense of Israel in regard to their right to persecute people who also had no connection with the holocaust, but were merely dwelling on the land that the Jews wanted to confiscate.  If the Jews had any argument at all regarding the history of occupation, logic would dictate that Bloomberg hand over the real keys of the Apple to the Hurons.  A clue here is that whenever discussion occurs about Israeli rights, the holocaust drapes the debate like a heavy shroud.

Israel should be confronted regarding their tantrum victimhood, and the matter pruned to balance, a solution contructed to achieve resolution, and retire the continually festering open sore schtick.

[Plane]

Israel should be confronted regarding their tantrum victimhood, and the matter pruned to balance, a solution contructed to achieve resolution, and retire the continually festering open sore schtick.

And can Palestinians also , be confronted regarding their tantrum victimhood, and the matter pruned to balance, a solution contructed to achieve resolution, and retire the continually festering open sore schtick.

It is a famous old saying that no one is born with a saddle on his back , and no one is born with boots and spurs either.*

I don't beleive that any human beings are born with a deed in their hands eiher.

 Is a land the patrimony of its elder inhaitants ?

Is the oldest claim the best , or the most recent?


In any case there is a lot of strength in both the case of the Jew and the Arab in Palestine , but not enough strength either way to justify the blood that is soaking into that accursed land.













*as Sir Algernon Sidney had put it, that some were born with saddles on their backs and others were born booted and spurred to ride them.
http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/smith_page_on_tom_paine.html

[Henny]

In what I'll term Henny-mania, our esteemed colleague from the Middle East spews acontextual rhetoric designed to inflame rather than illuminate. If you really want to illuminate rather than perform as an amen chorus, you might start by quoting Palestinian rhetoric and then by providing a balanced account of the critical 1947-1949 period in which the Palestinian exodus occurred. (Hint: there are competing histories.) Then, you should factor in the Holocaust on the morality of the entire episode.

Domer, I hear you. I think that the original point has been lost in this debate, however, please allow me to clarify that I am simply trying to give some balance to the anti-Palestinian rhetoric... NOT absolve them of all guilt.

I am aware of the competing historical accounts of that era, and anyone here can go and read up on it online, so I won't take up more space by copying and pasting some of that information.

That said, I do wish to clarify my stance on Israel. While I've said much here against the Israeli government, I am not of the "wipe Israel off the map" mindset. Pragmatically, it's just too late. Children have been born there, people have died fighting for it. It's not like they just moved into the neighborhood last week! Further, they are a warm and wonderful people and their country is a fantastic place to visit. (For anyone looking for a new spot to vacation, Tel Aviv is simply awesome!)

[Henny]

Henny, I have been meaning to tell you how much I appreciate the vast information regarding the Middle East.

People would know more about the Middle East if they watched media not coming from Katie, though I think everybody thinks if they listen to al jizirah they will be banned from listening to country music.

Before you, can't think of anybody who had much actual knowledge, though some banged the holocaust drum, one of the favorite guilt cannons of the JDL in dealing with critics.  (One thing about the Jews--they get SOME mileage using the ole guilt card.)

Thanks again for providing something real, you know, beyond the imitations of Frederic March doing William Jennings Bryant.

You're welcome, Crane. It's a fantastic place to be, albeit some of the problems. Or as they say locally, "Jordan - a great place in a really bad neighborhood." LOL.

[Henny]

East meets West... click to enlarge