Author Topic: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks  (Read 116085 times)

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sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2007, 12:04:05 PM »
I'm leaving for work now Miss Henny, so I don't have the time to respond to this in any detail.  suffice to say I requested you show me where Arab countries were actively trying to stop attacks on Isrea, and openly condemn such attacks.  Whatever 1 country Jordan does or doesn't do, which I'm glad tey are trying to help in the mideast conflict, hardly refutes my position on the vast majority of others.  And more importantly, just because I haven't seen/heard something that Jordan is doing does NOT mean it doesn't happen or doesn't exist.  It means simply I'm not aware of it.

So please, don't push the notion that unless I've seen it it can't exist.  I'm always open to being educated in other country's foreign policies.  And I look forward to when you can show me any other country besides Jordon, who's actively trying to stop militant Islamic terrorist attacks, both on Isreal, as well as on western civilization.  Perhaps they'll even sit down to deal with the Palestinian issue.  1 can hope.  Gotta go now
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 12:36:37 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2007, 12:55:50 PM »
No, Sirs, you originally said this:

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We also have the qualifier that those few countries that have recognized Isreal's right to exist, or have a treaty with Isreal, do absolutely squat in curbing the violence aimed directly at them by those Arab nations & terrorists that don't.

You were discussing the countries with peace treaties doing nothing. I've given you an example of how a country with a peace treaty protects Israel and its interests. You were generalizing - don't try to say you meant something else later.

Plane

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2007, 01:07:12 PM »
 I visited Jordan once , I was walking all over Aquaba mostly by myself .


It was a great experience , everyone treated me with perfect hospitality and I didn't have any problem finding someone who spoke English.

I was wearing a USN uniform too.

I hear good things about Jordan now and then , theimpression I get is that it is a country with a lot of reasonable people in it and a lot of reasonable people in its government , who are all trying to cope with unreasonable situations that keep popping up.

Michael Tee

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2007, 01:23:07 PM »
<<But I forgot... you've never SEEN any of this Sirs, so it doesn't exist.>>

LOL.  sirs is PARTICULARLY knowledgeable on what he has never seen.  And what he knows absolutely nothing about.  It's kind of like a sixth sense.

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2007, 01:36:53 PM »
No, Sirs, you originally said this:

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We also have the qualifier that those few countries that have recognized Isreal's right to exist, or have a treaty with Isreal, do absolutely squat in curbing the violence aimed directly at them by those Arab nations & terrorists that don't.

You were discussing the countries with peace treaties doing nothing. I've given you an example of how a country with a peace treaty protects Israel and its interests. You were generalizing - don't try to say you meant something else later.

Yes, I concede you gave me 1 country, doing more than just squat.  So any reference to all nerighboring Arab countries looking to see Israel cease to exist, can be amended to nearly all countries.  And the reference to those few who have recognized Israel's right to exist, but do nothing, can be amended to of those few countries that recognize Israel's right to exist, Jordan actually does help in some ways.  I do appreciate you getting me up to speed to at least 1 country trying to do something to help defuse the conflict, Miss Henny

Which still in no way refutes the premise that the vast majority (if not nearly all) Arab nations around the region, continue to work actively against Isreal, and it's right to exist.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2007, 01:38:51 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #110 on: February 22, 2007, 03:28:32 PM »
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I expect more from you, JS.

Why? I'm a pseudo-intellectual Catholic nutter. I reckon that the use of complete sentences is about as high as one's expectations should go.

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I get chastised because I referenced Israel as practically surrounded by enemies that wish to cease it to exist, while only 2 of them, you even conceding that 1 is "murky") are the reasons I was supposedly debunked?

How many neighbors does Israel have in your world Sirs? By my count they have four. Egypt and Jordan have treaties that recognize Israel and establish peace. Neither nation has attacked Israel since 1973, thirty-four years ago. Both nations have maintained peaceful relations for 34 years.

By the way, the Bush administration spent nearly $200 million in Jordan helping the Government there fight terrorism. So, I think you underestimate the efforts that jordan has put into place.

As I've said, you're lying about the scenario under which Israel lives. They are no longer surrounded by belligerent neighbors. The main issues since 1973 have all been in Lebanon and many problems there have been of Israel's own creation (a region from where we should be able to learn a lot about how not to occupy a territory). Israel has basically fought in Lebanon, in some form, since 1978.

To say that Lebanon (one of Israel's 4 neighbors) is a beligerent neighbor is wholly unfair. It is a nation that has been utterly destroyed and in chaos for nearly thirty years. They almost had it back on track until the 2006 invasion. But it is practically a nation without any central government. Israel and Syria enter and leave at will. Hopefully one day the two will leave Lebanon alone and allow them to establish peace treaties with both nations and rebuild a real nation again.

That leaves Syria, the last of the four. Syria has a relatively small border with Israel and the nastiest reputation. They were the last nation to actively engage Israel in combat during the 1982 war with Lebanon. Between the two countries they have all but ravaged Lebanon. We could debate on Syria's role. Are they as bad as has been said, or are they the bogeymen of the Middle East?

So, one out of four neighbors are possibly hostile? Though Syria is certainly not moving their tanks to the border any time soon. (By the way Lebanon is not an Arab nation, neither is Iran.) 

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What i don't see ANYONE doing Miss Henny, much less Jordan and Egypt is publically condemn folks like Hamas, publically pledge to help stop such attacks by folks like Hamas, provide logistical and intelligence assistance in taking out Terrorist cells and leaders.

As an aside, should they? How would Palestinians stop the policies that you even claim to believe are unjust otherwise? Do you suggest they just let Israel bowl them over, take their land, bulldoze their neighborhoods, force them into privation? Seriously, if you were a Palestinian and just had your home bulldozed and been moved to the West Bank - where you've never lived - what would you do? Talk about how great Israel is?

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I am absolutely convinced that if ALL attacks on Israel were to cease, and that all the surrounding Arab Governments would acknowledge Israel's right to exist right where it is, and pledge to go after any terrorist cells that took some pot shots at Israel, Israel would never bulldoze another Palestinian home.  They could even go back to their '47 borders

LOL

Sorry, it is just that now I see how you view this issue. I don't mean to belittle your opinion at all. I wonder if some Americans said the same thing about the Native American population back in the day...

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What they can't do is to allow the Palestinians to become a governing part of Israel, for the simple reason that if that were to occur, the majority of Palestinians could, over time, simply vote out all the Israeli elements of Israel ---> Israel ceases to exist.

That's a unionist argument in Northern Ireland. That was a nationalist argument in South Africa. That was a White Citizens Council argument in the Old South. That was a fascist argument in Germany.

You can change the language, but it doesn't make the argument any more appealing.

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Separate Palestinian and Israeli lands, completely sovereign unto themselves, with their own governments, immigration polices, economy, etc.

That would be nice except that Israel, just as South Africa and Southern Rhodesia did, keep the best land and most development for themselves and place the Palestinians in shantytowns, forcing them to work in Israel.



I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
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domer

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #111 on: February 22, 2007, 06:15:52 PM »
The rhetoric of anti-Semitism gets harsher and harsher, fueled by the ethos of Mother Church.

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2007, 02:13:34 AM »
Yes, I concede you gave me 1 country, doing more than just squat.  So any reference to all nerighboring Arab countries looking to see Israel cease to exist, can be amended to nearly all countries.  And the reference to those few who have recognized Israel's right to exist, but do nothing, can be amended to of those few countries that recognize Israel's right to exist, Jordan actually does help in some ways.  I do appreciate you getting me up to speed to at least 1 country trying to do something to help defuse the conflict, Miss Henny

Which still in no way refutes the premise that the vast majority (if not nearly all) Arab nations around the region, continue to work actively against Isreal, and it's right to exist.

Sirs, I disagree again, but this is like running my head into a brick wall. The only problems I see for Israel in the region (other than the resistance in Palestine) is Hizbollah in Lebanon - and don't forget that they do not represent the Lebanese government - as well as Syria, probably fueled by Iran.


sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2007, 03:43:57 AM »
Yes, I concede you gave me 1 country, doing more than just squat.  So any reference to all nerighboring Arab countries looking to see Israel cease to exist, can be amended to nearly all countries.  And the reference to those few who have recognized Israel's right to exist, but do nothing, can be amended to of those few countries that recognize Israel's right to exist, Jordan actually does help in some ways.  I do appreciate you getting me up to speed to at least 1 country trying to do something to help defuse the conflict, Miss Henny

Which still in no way refutes the premise that the vast majority (if not nearly all) Arab nations around the region, continue to work actively against Isreal, and it's right to exist.

Sirs, I disagree again, but this is like running my head into a brick wall. The only problems I see for Israel in the region (other than the resistance in Palestine) is Hizbollah in Lebanon - and don't forget that they do not represent the Lebanese government - as well as Syria, probably fueled by Iran.

Miss Henny, I'd ask you to check out my response to Js, unless the headache I gave you is too great at this time.  It's much more pervasive and vitriolic than simply a pair of terrorist organizations.  For crying out loud, you have the President of Iran not only demanding proof of the holocaust, but openly looking forward to the destruction of Isreal, of which he seems to be in a growing position to help bring about.  Until those organizations & governments are dealt with, and at a minimum recognized for what their goals and methods are, little progress will be made in any debate or diplomacy
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2007, 03:44:30 AM »
I'm usually not 1 to make such extended responses, but having been unable to get back to Js on a couple of other occasions, I felt compelled to tackle this with a little more detail, and hopefully clarity, as I think a confusion is developing between what I've been referencing as Israel's middle east antagonists vs simply what countries border Israel.

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I get chastised because I referenced Israel as practically surrounded by enemies that wish to cease it to exist, while only 2 of them, you even conceding that 1 is "murky") are the reasons I was supposedly debunked?

How many neighbors does Israel have in your world Sirs?

Since I at no time was specific to "borders", it would include the 4 you're referring to, along with Iraq, Iran (I know, their Persian, but still openly hostile, as their President has made painfully clear), Saudi Arabia, and would also include as Arab nations not supportive of Israel, Yemen & Oman.  When I referenced Israel's middle east neighbors "practically" surrounding them, I should have made it more clear that it was the Arab Middle East countries in the region (as well as Iran), NOT, just those that simply border Israel.


By the way, the Bush administration spent nearly $200 million in Jordan helping the Government there fight terrorism. So, I think you underestimate the efforts that Jordan has put into place.

As I said, 1 country doesn't refute the vast majority of the rest


As I've said, you're lying about the scenario under which Israel lives. They are no longer surrounded by belligerent neighbors.

Yes, they are, as Henny has even conceded that Egypt is merely "murky" in what assistance it provides at stemming attacks against Israel, despite having a "treaty".  1+ country doesn't offset the other 8 countries in the region.  1 country, as much as you and Miss Henny are trying to state they do, to help Israel, doesn't offset the vast majority of others who are actively hostile, if not condemning the very presence of Israel, with pledges to see them cease to exist.  

The threat to Israel is likely permanent, since you can trace the conflict back thousands of years.  Israel was allowed to relocate back to it's original area by the UN after Hitler's extermination attempt, and the Arab countries almost immediately took action against Israel.  The fact that Israel now has a superior military, extended lands to defend itself, and a nuclear deterrent, is largely what's keeping them in existence currently.  Probably taking out Iraq's growing nuclear threat in '81 extended their existence considerably.  Point being, the threat is still just as valid as it was in the late 40's, only that they've managed to provide themselves a fairly good defensive position at this time.


The main issues since 1973 have all been in Lebanon and many problems there have been of Israel's own creation (a region from where we should be able to learn a lot about how not to occupy a territory). Israel has basically fought in Lebanon, in some form, since 1978.  To say that Lebanon (one of Israel's 4 neighbors) is a belligerent neighbor is wholly unfair.

Actually, the main issues are what caused Israel to have to go into Lebanon.  IIRC, had Israel been left alone, Israel would have never entered Lebanon.  Lebanon may technically not be as "belligerent" as many other nearby nations, but the fact Syria and other terrorists USE Lebanon as launching points for attacks against Israel, kinda is the point I'm referring to, and not unfair in the least


Israel and Syria enter and leave at will. Hopefully one day the two will leave Lebanon alone and allow them to establish peace treaties with both nations and rebuild a real nation again.

Somehow you keep skipping right over the part that causes Israel to "enter at will".  Would you care to please keep that in the forefront of this discussion?


That leaves Syria, the last of the four.

No, only the last of the 4 that simply border Israel, but definitely not the last bad guy in this debacle


Syria has a relatively small border with Israel and the nastiest reputation. They were the last nation to actively engage Israel in combat during the 1982 war with Lebanon. Between the two countries they have all but ravaged Lebanon. We could debate on Syria's role. Are they as bad as has been said, or are they the bogeymen of the Middle East?

So, not the tact is to minimize Syria, almost to the point that it's really just an irrelevant blip.  And note the effort to pull Israel back into this, and imply some equal "ravaging" to Lebanon, completely ignoring what Israel was doing in Lebanon vs what Syria & Hezbollah were doing in Lebanon.  


So, one out of four neighbors are possibly hostile? Though Syria is certainly not moving their tanks to the border any time soon. (By the way Lebanon is not an Arab nation, neither is Iran.)  

Actually, no, as far as the border nations, we have 1 that's "murky" in it's efforts to curb terrorist attacks on Israel, 1 that's openly hostile, and uses another frequently to launch attacks from, leaving basically 1 that we can actually point to, as it relates to those nations that simply border Israel, as actually trying to curb the violence and attacks on Israel


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What i don't see ANYONE doing Miss Henny, much less Jordan and Egypt is publically condemn folks like Hamas, publically pledge to help stop such attacks by folks like Hamas, provide logistical and intelligence assistance in taking out Terrorist cells and leaders.

As an aside, should they?

Boy, isn't that an eye opening response.  and here is probably why such great effort and rationalizations are done to both minimize the threat and attacks on Israel, while magnifying Israel as something along the lines of the next Hitler-like Germany, complete with ethnic cleansing and mass killings of Palestinians, minus of course the actual ethnic cleansing and and mass killings


How would Palestinians stop the policies that you even claim to believe are unjust otherwise? Do you suggest they just let Israel bowl them over, take their land, bulldoze their neighborhoods, force them into privation? Seriously, if you were a Palestinian and just had your home bulldozed and been moved to the West Bank - where you've never lived - what would you do?

Move.  Then again, my other Arab "neighbors" have immigration policies even stricter than that of Israel.  Most bascially won't let me become citizens of their countries.  Imagine that


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I am absolutely convinced that if ALL attacks on Israel were to cease, and that all the surrounding Arab Governments would acknowledge Israel's right to exist right where it is, and pledge to go after any terrorist cells that took some pot shots at Israel, Israel would never bulldoze another Palestinian home.  They could even go back to their '47 borders

LOL  Sorry, it is just that now I see how you view this issue. I don't mean to belittle your opinion at all. I wonder if some Americans said the same thing about the Native American population back in the day...

Not sure what A has to do with B, nor why you'd even laugh at the notion that if Israel had been left alone in '48-'07, we wouldn't be having this debate


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What they can't do is to allow the Palestinians to become a governing part of Israel, for the simple reason that if that were to occur, the majority of Palestinians could, over time, simply vote out all the Israeli elements of Israel ---> Israel ceases to exist.

That's a unionist argument in Northern Ireland. That was a nationalist argument in South Africa. That was a White Citizens Council argument in the Old South. That was a fascist argument in Germany.

See?  Now Israel, in order to survive is Fascist Germany, minus of course the actual extermination camps.  Sorry Js, the right of return is a non-starter at this point.  I'm open to other options however


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Separate Palestinian and Israeli lands, completely sovereign unto themselves, with their own governments, immigration polices, economy, etc.

That would be nice except that Israel, just as South Africa and Southern Rhodesia did, keep the best land and most development for themselves and place the Palestinians in shantytowns, forcing them to work in Israel.

Perhaps had Israel not been attacked since '48, and hadn't had to procure more lands in their defense, and perhaps if other Arab nations would openly and publically condemn terrorist attacks on Israel (something i noticed you didn't really seem to address), and even took active steps to stop said attacks, and perhaps if these same nations would publically broadcast Israels right to exist right where it is, then Israel might have some legitimate reasons to rethink some of their foreign policy positions, as it relates to the Palestinians.  

And I'd have a legitimate reason to condemn them if they didn't

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2007, 10:26:13 AM »
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The rhetoric of anti-Semitism gets harsher and harsher, fueled by the ethos of Mother Church.

Where have I shown any anti-Semitism? What does it have to do with Catholicism?



I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2007, 10:56:54 AM »
Miss Henny, I'd ask you to check out my response to Js, unless the headache I gave you is too great at this time.  It's much more pervasive and vitriolic than simply a pair of terrorist organizations.  For crying out loud, you have the President of Iran not only demanding proof of the holocaust, but openly looking forward to the destruction of Isreal, of which he seems to be in a growing position to help bring about.  Until those organizations & governments are dealt with, and at a minimum recognized for what their goals and methods are, little progress will be made in any debate or diplomacy

Read the response to Js. And the headache just got worse.  :-\

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2007, 11:10:54 AM »
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Boy, isn't that an eye opening response.  and here is probably why such great effort and rationalizations are done to both minimize the threat and attacks on Israel, while magnifying Israel as something along the lines of the next Hitler-like Germany, complete with ethnic cleansing and mass killings of Palestinians, minus of course the actual ethnic cleansing and and mass killings

I have never said that Israel is "Hitler-like" with ethnic cleansing. I'd appreciate a little honesty in debate.

My statement is fair. A group of people have been mistreated and pushed off their land. Their have been deaths of innocents and the Palestinians have been led to privation. How should they respond? How would you have them respond?

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Somehow you keep skipping right over the part that causes Israel to "enter at will".  Would you care to please keep that in the forefront of this discussion?

To "fight" groups in Southern Lebanon, but somehow that gets extended to a pissing match with Syria, which involves occupying Beirut. It became a disaster for Israel. They fought a war of attrition for years. Syria's role has been no better, if not worse. They simply aimed to use Lebanon as a puppet. This is also where Israel saw some true war crimes at Sabra and Chatila, where they allowed a Lebanese Christian Army to rampage a Palestinian refugee camp.

The primary reason for the initial war was to counteract Syrian influence in Lebanon and push PLO militants back 40 km. The 1982 war, by the way was one of the first where the Israeli media published only supportive information for the public. Some media reports were outright lies that made it seem as if the Israeli military was suffering little or no casualties. The party that voted against the war in the Knesset were called traitors, and there were bizarre links to the war and other political issues. In reality the war proved very costly and took quite a long time (18 years) and in the end proved useless.

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No, only the last of the 4 that simply border Israel, but definitely not the last bad guy in this debacle

I don't believe it is a Manichean world out there. We're not talking about "good guys" and "bad guys."

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And note the effort to pull Israel back into this, and imply some equal "ravaging" to Lebanon, completely ignoring what Israel was doing in Lebanon vs what Syria & Hezbollah were doing in Lebanon.

Let's clear something up. Hezbollah are a Lebanese Political Party with a military wing. They belong in Lebanon. Whether you like them or not, to ask what they were doing in Lebanon is ridiculous.

Israel did ravage Lebanon. They bombed Tyre and Sidon, along with Beirut. They occupied West Beirut and if you will recall the pictures of Beirut at the time I think "ravage" may be far too kind of a word. You may accept their reasons for being there and their reasons for decimating Lebanon Sirs, but don't start denying simple facts. Lebanon was absolutely and utterly destroyed thanks to Israel and Syria. Both of which, in my opinion, were in the wrong.

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Move.  Then again, my other Arab "neighbors" have immigration policies even stricter than that of Israel.  Most bascially won't let me become citizens of their countries.  Imagine that

It is amazing that when you are an American you are such a hawk and defender of property rights. Yet, when you are a Palestinian you become meek and cautious. I love how you say "move" as if the majority of Palestinians have ample wealth to simply jot down to the local international airport and buy some first class tickets to America, Britain, or Canada.

Unfortunately, they don't. And while it may come as a shock to you, many of them don't want to live in other Arab countries. I know, all Arab Muslims are pretty much the same, right? And if someone bulldozed your house you'd just pick up and move to Brixton in the UK. You wouldn't know anyone, but you speak English right?

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then Israel might have some legitimate reasons to rethink some of their foreign policy positions, as it relates to the Palestinians

Note your use of the term "foreign policy" when speaking of the Palestinians. That's how the Nationalists in South Africa spoke of the blacks once they established the "independent" homelands. Always interesting to see Government propaganda working.

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And I'd have a legitimate reason to condemn them if they didn't

No, you make a very good far right-wing supporter of the Likud, or the Nationalists of old. Botha would have loved you.


I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2007, 11:27:49 AM »
I love how you completely ignored the foundation that has brought Isreal to be this evil South African-like place you try make it out to be, and again minimizing the reasons they were in Lebanon, yet focused on how disastrous it is.  And no matter how ludicrous it is for you to think I'm being as some RW Likud supporter, my point still remains, which you also managed to gloss right over;
- had Israel not been the focus of attacks since '48, and hadn't had to procure more lands in their defense,
- if other Arab nations would openly and publically condemn terrorist attacks on Israel,
- if other Arab nations took active steps to stop said attacks against Isreal,
- if other Arab nations would publically broadcast Israel's right to exist right where it is,

then Israel would have some legitimate reasons to rethink some of their foreign policy positions, as it relates to the Palestinians. 

And I'd have a legitimate reason to condemn them if they didn't
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2007, 11:57:15 AM »
So under the right circumstances, apartheid is acceptable to you?
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.