Author Topic: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks  (Read 116229 times)

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sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #195 on: March 05, 2007, 02:27:21 PM »
And my problem is that's not the problem behind Islamofascism and Militant Islam.  That's a side note, and as much a problem as you believe it is or how much of apartheid as you believe Israel is running, you yourself keep shooting down the biggest need in addressing not just it, but in dealing with militant Islam.

And militant Islam has become a problem for Israel because...?

A) They're not Muslim,  B) they've been referred to as monkeys and non-citizens by their Arab brethren even before Christ I do believe & C) it's a problem for all Non-muslims, not just Israel


Yea, I realize that recently the WH changed it's course, and have agreed, thru Iraq to "talk" to messers Syria & Iran.  Bad move in my book.  Something I can actually criticise Bush for

And something I applaud the government for, although they're doing it obviously not happy about doing it. I know you're of the "just blow 'em up" mentality Sirs, and with all due respect, I am SO GLAD you're not in charge of any military efforts.   :P

You might think differently, under different circumstances Miss Henny.  I'm just thankful that my prayers for you and your loved ones' safety is being answered
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 07:13:39 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

The_Professor

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #196 on: March 05, 2007, 02:44:01 PM »
And my problem is that's not the problem behind Islamofascism and Militant Islam.  That's a side note, and as much a problem as you believe it is or how much of apartheid as you believe Israel is running, you yourself keep shooting down the biggest need in addressing not just it, but in dealing with militant Islam.

And militant Islam has become a problem for Israel because...? (This "chicken and the egg" argument is getting old.)

Yea, I realize that recently the WH changed it's course, and have agreed, thru Iraq to "talk" to messers Syria & Iran.  Bad move in my book.  Something I can actually criticize Bush for

And something I applaud the government for, although they're doing it obviously not happy about doing it. I know you're of the "just blow 'em up" mentality Sirs, and with all due respect, I am SO GLAD you're not in charge of any military efforts.   :P

I do not believe, Henny, but correct me if I am mistaken, that you have addressed the issue of why "moderate" Islam does not reign in "radical" Islam? That mgiht get them more in respect and associated corrective actions by the West than not speaking out against the intolerable actions of the Bin Ladens of the world. You indicated in previous posts that many communities in the Moslem world are "tight" communities. If so, round up the 'bad guys" for the proper justice processes, or is it, that even "moderate" Islam really cheers the "radicals" on, wishing they had the courage to do what the "radicals" are doing? Do not be grouped with them (light with darkness).

This is similar to what the Bible indicates about marrying an unbeliever:

2 Corinthians 6:14: "Do not be unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and lawlessness have in common? What fellowship has light with darkness?"

If you go into a dark room where does the darkness go? It disappears it must leave. It can only return when the light is removed or the light switch is turned off. Darkness and light cannot occupy the same space. So is the same in the life of someone who belongs to Jesus.

We are not to form any covenant relationships or alliance with unbelievers and to share in their activities that violate the covenant obligations a Christian has with God

Ephesians chapter 5:7-8 "Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light." We are to hate iniquity and to love righteousness as Jesus exemplified in his life (Hebrew 1:9)

For the believer of the gospel of Jesus Christ to have fellowship with God the Father and his Son Jesus is the greatest joy we can have (1 John 1:4).

Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12), and through the gospel that true light enlightens mankind (John 1:9). Light and fellowship work together. Light and darkness cannot share the same space. Not only is darkness devoid of any light but also of love. 1 John 2:11 "But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not where he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes."



Also, interestingly, you feel free to attack Sirs...Better say 500 Hail Mary's. :-)

Sirs is simply attempting to dig into the heart of the matter here. I mentioned a few days ago that I fewlt like leaving for a while because it was like beating a dead horse and some demurred, saying, no please stay, its not like this. And yet this is what you just said JS. So, don't give up the good fight, run the race. What, never seen "Chariots of Fire"?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 03:00:18 PM by The_Professor »

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #197 on: March 05, 2007, 03:13:36 PM »
Quote
We are not to form any covenant relationships or alliance with unbelievers and to share in their activities that violate the covenant obligations a Christian has with God

Ephesians chapter 5:7-8 "Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light." We are to hate iniquity and to love righteousness as Jesus exemplified in his life (Hebrew 1:9)

For the believer of the gospel of Jesus Christ to have fellowship with God the Father and his Son Jesus is the greatest joy we can have (1 John 1:4).

Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12), and through the gospel that true light enlightens mankind (John 1:9). Light and fellowship work together. Light and darkness cannot share the same space. Not only is darkness devoid of any light but also of love. 1 John 2:11 "But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not where he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes."

Ephesians is specifically referring on how to act. That would be more obvious if you included verses 1-4.

Quote
1 So be imitators of God, 1 as beloved children,
2 and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma.
3 Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,
4 no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.

Verse six is conveniently left off which is directly associated with Ephesians 2:2, which is very much a warning against gnosticism. "Age of this world" or "aeon" (see Ephesians 2:2) is a common term in gnosticism, which was already a problem facing the early church.

2nd Corinthians 6:14 is Paul's attack on Paganism (actually it is 6:14 - 6:18).

The most important part of that chapter is certainly 6:1-13. Verses 14-18 are a very sudden shift away from the rest of the chapter, which is the real fluid argument of Paul to the Corinthians.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
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domer

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #198 on: March 05, 2007, 04:00:49 PM »
JS, was Gnosticism as great a problem for the early, Pauline Church as Judaism, and were not the intellectual attitudes of Christians toward them, if not their very social practices, ones of separatism, which could actually, for those groups and many others, be considered an early form of apartheid, especially as the Church matured into Empire? I find the Church's holier-than-thou preaching to be greatly at odds with the living religion it spawned, which makes cries for humanity emanating from that base suspect, at least, and evil, at worst, as embodied in the terrible descent of Christian Europe into a frenzy of annihilation. Kumbaya.

_JS

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #199 on: March 05, 2007, 04:43:24 PM »
Quote
JS, was Gnosticism as great a problem for the early, Pauline Church as Judaism, and were not the intellectual attitudes of Christians toward them, if not their very social practices, ones of separatism, which could actually, for those groups and many others, be considered an early form of apartheid, especially as the Church matured into Empire? I find the Church's holier-than-thou preaching to be greatly at odds with the living religion it spawned, which makes cries for humanity emanating from that base suspect, at least, and evil, at worst, as embodied in the terrible descent of Christian Europe into a frenzy of annihilation. Kumbaya.

Judaism was not really a problem, I wouldn't say though early Christians and Jews were at odds on occasion. Judaic Christianity and Gentile Christianity certainly had their moments, especially relating to what rules the Gentile Christians were supposed to follow and how similar to Judaism the early Church should remain.

Remember that at the time there were no scriptures to follow, even amongst the Jews there was no "official" canon and the two most popular were the Palestinian Canon and the Alexandrian Canon (though others existed). It also depended on what type of Jew one was. Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Essenes were the most common. The Pharisees (such as Paul) were the most likely to be found in discussion with Christians (and we know these discussions took place as I'll explain later). For one thing, the Pharisees believed in resurrection of the dead in a future messianic age. This was a major disagreement they had with the Sadducees, but something they generally shared with the Christians (in some form).

Judaic Christians held very closely to their Judaic beliefs. Many of them simply saw Christianity as a fulfillment of Jewish beliefs and in that way Christians would be another of the sects of Judaism. James the Just (likely author of the Epistle of James) is a good example of a Judaic Christian and was also believed to be the leader of the Christians of Jerusalem. Peter, before coming to understand the importance of spreading the word to the Gentiles, and likely even after was a Judaic Christian. We know that they set laws for the gentile Christians of Antioch. They weren't severely strict, by any means.

The most violent reaction to Christianity was the Sanhedrin's stoning of Saint Stephen, but we see how that leads to the conversion of Paul.

One of the simple pragmatic issues faced by Paul and other apostles was that the Jewish people just weren't taken with Christianity. Some were, of course, but most of the success was to be found in Turkey, Greece, Egypt, and Rome. I don't believe there is any sinister conclusion to draw from that. If anything it shows that the Jewish people were very faithful.

When the Jews revolted against the Romans (who at the time were not Christian) and Titus destroyed the temple and massacred Jerusalem. The Jewish people eventually regrouped, but had been utterly devestated. It was, without a doubt, one of the worst points in history that the people of Israel have ever faced. By the way, it also saw the disappearance of the Saduccees and Essenes, though we aren't precisely sure why. It left the Pharisees who eventually became the Rabbis.

When the Jewish people officially chose a canon text, which may have happened at the Council of Jamnia (again, the history is a bit murky) they also included a "curse on the Minim." In other words they determined that religious leaders should not converse with Judaic Christians, Gnostics, Nazarenes (a sect of Judaic Christians who refused to break from the Jews) and others who often conversed with the Pharisees on many religious subjects. These were just conversations they had, without nasty accusations or formal indictments.

Now why would they do that? It wasn't specifically anti-Christian at all. Much of it was due to the terrible loss to the Romans. It was a period of re-evaluation and asking themselves "what went wrong?" If you read the Old Testament prophets there is a great tie for the Jews between historical events and their relationship with God.

Domer, I don't know what you expect from me.

Has the Church had anti-semites amongst it in the past? Absolutely. The Church has always had sinners within it.

If you think I am anti-Semitic as an individual, I'd like to know where because I don't see it. If I truly am, I need to know and need to seek penance for it. Certainly that is no better a form of bigotry than not allowing one of your citizens to move into a city in your country based solely on his race.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

domer

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #200 on: March 05, 2007, 05:15:09 PM »
My thesis, which should be obvious, is that from early-on in Christian history, perhaps dating to Paul or even earlier, Christianity both defined itself and distinguished itself as a movement in sharp contradistinction to Judaism, which became its foil through the ages in a love-hate relationship: love, as the seat from which Jesus and Christianity sprang, but hate as the authors of His death and the embodiment of the "old" that Jesus's "new" was to supplant. This current was present from the earliest times as conversions would not have occurred unless the new way were set apart. It became one of the underlying bits of "logic" animating the Church down through the ages, with terrible consequences I can never forget or de-emphasize, indeed, as a matter of my own chastened Christian belief. This viewpoint has found expression in the learned literature, most notably in James Carroll's "Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews, a History." Carroll is a former Paulist priest turned writer. I find works such as this, beyond the canonical, to be much more trustworthy as a matter of basic human honesty and intellectual pride than I would a (necessarily) biased work with an imprimatur. The relevance all this has to the present discussion is the reinforcement this view offers to the tragic Jewish lament and cautionary saying: "Never forget." As I see it, putting a premium on this insight as a one-time devout Catholic, the caution of which I speak is abundantly appropriate now in Israel-Palestine, where wrong steps and consequent vilification can ignite an orgy of anti-Semitism, which has unfortunately taken on a universal character, spreading beyond its Christian origins.

Plane

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #201 on: March 05, 2007, 05:26:03 PM »
Searchable Koran


http://www.hti.umich.edu/k/koran/


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The_Professor

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #202 on: March 05, 2007, 06:08:53 PM »
Quote
We are not to form any covenant relationships or alliance with unbelievers and to share in their activities that violate the covenant obligations a Christian has with God

Ephesians chapter 5:7-8 "Be not ye therefore partakers with them. For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light." We are to hate iniquity and to love righteousness as Jesus exemplified in his life (Hebrew 1:9)

For the believer of the gospel of Jesus Christ to have fellowship with God the Father and his Son Jesus is the greatest joy we can have (1 John 1:4).

Jesus is the light of the world (John 8:12), and through the gospel that true light enlightens mankind (John 1:9). Light and fellowship work together. Light and darkness cannot share the same space. Not only is darkness devoid of any light but also of love. 1 John 2:11 "But he that hates his brother is in darkness, and walks in darkness, and knows not where he goes, because that darkness has blinded his eyes."

Ephesians is specifically referring on how to act. That would be more obvious if you included verses 1-4.

Quote
1 So be imitators of God, 1 as beloved children,
2 and live in love, as Christ loved us and handed himself over for us as a sacrificial offering to God for a fragrant aroma.
3 Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,
4 no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place, but instead, thanksgiving.

Verse six is conveniently left off which is directly associated with Ephesians 2:2, which is very much a warning against gnosticism. "Age of this world" or "aeon" (see Ephesians 2:2) is a common term in gnosticism, which was already a problem facing the early church.

2nd Corinthians 6:14 is Paul's attack on Paganism (actually it is 6:14 - 6:18).

The most important part of that chapter is certainly 6:1-13. Verses 14-18 are a very sudden shift away from the rest of the chapter, which is the real fluid argument of Paul to the Corinthians.

I'm not sure what youer point is, JS. The text clearly says not be unevenly yoked. Are you disputing this or ????

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #203 on: March 06, 2007, 12:38:26 AM »


« Last Edit: March 06, 2007, 12:48:31 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #204 on: March 06, 2007, 12:49:50 AM »
I do not believe, Henny, but correct me if I am mistaken, that you have addressed the issue of why "moderate" Islam does not reign in "radical" Islam? That mgiht get them more in respect and associated corrective actions by the West than not speaking out against the intolerable actions of the Bin Ladens of the world.

There was a thread on this very topic earlier. Why must they be held accountable? How exactly are, for example, my relatives supposed to reign in radical elements of Islam? Should they arm themselves and go out and fight them? People here are just trying to live their lives, Professor. They aren't that different from you. They go to work, attend universities, shop at grocery stores, eat at restaurants, go to the movies, send their kids to school, sleep 8 hours every night. They DO speak out, but since you don't hear it you assume it doesn't happen, correct?

You indicated in previous posts that many communities in the Moslem world are "tight" communities. If so, round up the 'bad guys" for the proper justice processes, or is it, that even "moderate" Islam really cheers the "radicals" on, wishing they had the courage to do what the "radicals" are doing? Do not be grouped with them (light with darkness).

They are tribal. There is a difference. But I disagree with you that moderate Islam cheers the radicals on. Although I would say that they are about in step with what I have posted in this forum and what Js has posted in this forum - they do not agree with you, or Sirs, about the issues at stake or how to address them.

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #205 on: March 06, 2007, 01:11:35 AM »
An opinion piece by an Israeli peace activist...

Facing Mecca   
   
By Uri Avnery

Must a Native American recognise the right of the United States of America to exist?

Interesting question. The US was established by Europeans who invaded a continent that did not belong to them, eradicated most of the indigenous population (the “Red Indians”) in a prolonged campaign of genocide, and exploited the labour of millions of slaves who had been brutally torn from their lives in Africa. Not to mention what is going on today. Must a Native-American — or indeed anybody at all — recognise the right of such a state to exist?

But nobody raises the question. The United States does not give a damn if anybody recognises its right to exist or not. It does not demand this from the countries with which it maintains relations.

Why? Because this is a ridiculous demand to start with.

OK, the United States is older than the state of Israel, as well as bigger and more powerful. But countries that are not superpowers do not demand this either. India, for example, is not expected to recognise Pakistan’s “right to exist”, in spite of the fact that Pakistan was established at the same time as Israel, and — like Israel — on an ethnic/religious basis.

So why is Hamas required to “recognise          Israel‘s right to exist”?

When a state “recognises” another state, it is a formal recognition, the acknowledgement of an existing fact. It does not imply approval. The Soviet Union was not required to recognise the existence of the US as a capitalist state. On the contrary, Nikita Khrushchev promised in 1956 to “bury” it. The US certainly did not dream of recognising at any time the right of the Soviet Union to exist as a communist state.

So why is this weird demand addressed to the Palestinians? Why must they recognise the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state?

I am an Israeli patriot, and I do not feel that I need anybody’s recognition of the right of my state to exist. If somebody is ready to make peace with me, within borders and on conditions agreed upon in negotiations, that is quite enough for me. I am prepared to leave the history, ideology and theology of the matter to the theologians, ideologues and historians.

Perhaps after 60 years of the existence of Israel, and after we have become a regional power, we are still so unsure of ourselves that we crave for constant assurance of our right to exist — and of all people, from those that we have been oppressing for the last 40 years. Perhaps it is the mentality of the ghetto that is still so deeply ingrained in us.

But the demand addressed now to the Palestinian unity government is far from sincere. It has an ulterior political aim, indeed two: a) to convince the international community not to recognise the Palestinian government that is about to be set up, and b) to justify the refusal of the Israeli government to enter into peace negotiations with it.

The British call this a “red herring” — a smelly fish that a fugitive drags across the path in order to put the pursuing dogs off the trail.

When I was young, Jewish people in Palestine used to talk about our secret weapon: the Arab refusal. Every time somebody proposed some peace plan, we relied on the Arab side to say “no”. True, the Zionist leadership was against any compromise that would have frozen the existing situation and halted the momentum of the Zionist enterprise of expansion and settlement. But the Zionist leaders used to say “yes” and “we extend our hand for peace” — and rely on the Arabs to scuttle the proposal.

That was successful for a hundred years, until Yasser Arafat changed the rules, recognised Israel and signed the Oslo Accords, which stipulated that the negotiations for the final borders between Israel and Palestine must be concluded not later than 1999. To this very day, those negotiations have not even started. Successive Israeli governments have prevented it because they were not ready under any circumstances to fix final borders. (The 2000 Camp David meeting was not a real negotiation — Ehud Barak convened it without any preparation, dictated his terms to the Palestinians and broke the dialogue off when they were refused.)

After the death of Arafat, the refusal became more and more difficult. Arafat was always described as a terrorist, cheat and liar. But Mahmoud Abbas was accepted by everybody as an honest person who truly wanted to achieve peace. Yet Ariel Sharon succeeded in avoiding any negotiations with him. The “unilateral separation” served this end. President Bush supported him with both hands.

Well, Sharon suffered his stroke, and Ehud Olmert took his place. And then something happened that caused great joy in Jerusalem: the Palestinians elected Hamas.

How wonderful! After all, both the US and Europe have designated Hamas as a terrorist organisation! Hamas is a part of the Shiite Axis of Evil! (They are not Shiites, but who cares!) Hamas does not recognise Israel! Hamas is trying to eliminate Abbas, the noble man of peace! It is clear that with such a gang there is no need, nor would it make any sense, to conduct negotiations about peace and borders.

And indeed, the US and their European satellites are boycotting the Palestinian government and starving the Palestinian population. They have set three conditions for lifting the blockade: a) that the Palestinian government and Hamas must recognise the right of the state of Israel to exist, b) they must stop “terrorism”, and c) they must undertake to fulfil the agreements signed by the PLO.

On the face of it, that makes sense. In reality, none at all. Because all these conditions are completely one-sided:

1. The Palestinians must recognise the right of Israel to exist (without defining its borders, of course), but the Israeli government is not required to recognise the right of a Palestinian state to exist at all.

2. The Palestinians must put an end to “terrorism”, but the Israeli government is not required to stop its military operations in the Palestinian territories and stop the building of settlements. The “roadmap” does indeed say so, but that has been completely ignored by everybody, including the Americans.

3. The Palestinians must undertake to fulfil the agreements, but no such undertaking is required from the Israeli government, which has broken almost all provision of the Oslo agreement. Among others: the opening of the “safe passages” between Gaza and the West Bank, the carrying out of the third “redeployment” (withdrawal from Palestinian territories), the treatment of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as one single territory, etc.

Since Hamas came to power, its leaders have understood the need to become more flexible. They are very sensitive to the mood of their people. The Palestinian population is longing for an end to the occupation and for a life of peace. Therefore, step by step, Hamas has come nearer to recognition of Israel. Their religious doctrine does not allow them to declare this publicly (Jewish fundamentalists too cling to the word of God “To your seed I have given this land”) but it has been doing so indirectly. Little steps, but a big revolution.

Hamas has announced its support for the establishment of a Palestinian state bounded by the June 1967 borders — meaning: next to Israel and not in place of Israel. (This week, ex-minister Kadura Fares repeated that Hamas leader Khaled Mishaal has confirmed this.) Hamas has given Abbas a power of attorney to conduct the negotiations with Israel and has undertaken in advance to accept any agreement ratified in a referendum. Abbas, of course, clearly advocates the setting up of a Palestinian state next to Israel, across the Green Line. There is no doubt whatsoever that if such an agreement is achieved, the huge majority of the Palestinian population will vote for it.

In Jerusalem, worry has set in. If this goes on, the world might even get the impression that Hamas has changed, and then — God forbid — lift the economic blockade on the Palestinian people.

Now the king of Saudi Arabia comes and disturbs Olmert’s plans even more. In an impressive event, facing the holiest site of Islam, the king put an end to the bloody strife between the Palestinian security organs and prepared the ground for a Palestinian government of national unity. Hamas undertook to respect the agreements signed by the PLO, including the Oslo agreement, which is based on the mutual recognition of the state of Israel and the PLO as representative of the Palestinian people.

The king has extracted the Palestinian issue from the embrace of Iran, to which Hamas had turned because it had no alternative, and has returned Hamas to the lap of the Sunni family. Since Saudi Arabia is the main ally of the US in the Arab world, the king has put the Palestinian issue firmly on the table of the Oval Room.

In Jerusalem, near panic broke out. This is the scariest of nightmares: the fear that the unconditional support of the US and Europe for Israeli policy will be reconsidered.

The panic had immediate results: “political circles” in Jerusalem announced that they rejected the Mecca agreement out of hand. Then second thoughts set in. Shimon Peres, long established master of the “yes-but-no” method, convinced Olmert that the brazen “no” must be replaced with a subtler “no”. For this purpose, the red herring was again taken out of the freezer.

It is not enough that Hamas recognise Israel in practice. Israel insists that its “right to exist” must also be recognised. Political recognition does not suffice, ideological recognition is required. By this logic, one could also demand that Mishaal join the Zionist organisation.

If one thinks that peace is more important for Israel than expansion and settlements, one must welcome the change in the position of Hamas — as expressed in the Mecca agreement — and encourage it to continue along this road. The king of Saudi Arabia, who has already convinced the leaders of all Arab countries to recognise Israel in exchange for the establishment of the state of Palestine across the Green Line, should be warmly congratulated.

But if one opposes peace because it would fix the final borders of Israel and allow for no more expansion, one will do everything to convince the Americans and Europeans to continue with the boycott on the Palestinian government and the blockade of the Palestinian people.

The Americans now have a problem. On one side, they need the Saudi king. Not only does he sit on huge oil reservoirs, but he is also the centrepiece of the “moderate Sunni bloc”. If the king tells Bush that the solution of the Palestinian problem is needed in order to dam the spread of Iranian influence across the Middle East, his words will carry a lot of weight. If Bush is planning a military attack on Iran, as it seems he is, it is important for him to have the united support of the Sunnis.

On the other side, the pro-Israel lobby — both Jewish and Christian — is very important for Bush. It is vital for him to be able to count on the “Christian base” of the Republican Party, which is composed of fundamentalists who support the extreme Right in Israel, come what may.

So what is to be done? Nothing. For this nothing, US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice found an apt diplomatic slogan, taken from up-to-date American slang: “New political horizons”. Clearly, she did not ponder on the meaning of these words. Because the horizon is the symbol of a goal that will never be reached: the more you approach it, the more it recedes.

The writer, Israeli author and activist, is the head of the Israeli peace movement, Gush Shalom.

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #206 on: March 06, 2007, 01:12:15 AM »

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #207 on: March 06, 2007, 01:28:10 AM »
Evil little Israel.  If they'd just let the Palestinians re-intergrate and treat them like anyone else, all will be right as rain       :-\
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #208 on: March 06, 2007, 01:43:06 AM »
An opinion piece by an Israeli peace activist...

And I found the link to the author's website: http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html

(No, I'm not intentionally posting these bits and pieces one by one to lengthen the thread to record length.  ;D )

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #209 on: March 06, 2007, 01:44:52 AM »
Evil little Israel.  If they'd just let the Palestinians re-intergrate and treat them like anyone else, all will be right as rain       :-\

So, even the point of view of an Israeli is invalid to you if the Israeli disagrees with your view of what "is" and what "isn't?" Or are Jews who strive for peace through activism and working both sides of the issue "self-loathing Jews?"