Author Topic: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks  (Read 116069 times)

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sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #315 on: March 15, 2007, 01:59:46 AM »
I'll likely leave this thread after this, since Tee's currently in broken record mode....look at the parts of Wikipedia I want you to look at, but not the summary, because that's obviously been doctored by some Zionist sympathiser Historical fact remains, that Tee has yet to show how wikipedia or any other credible historical reference refutes, iregardless of what minor Israeli incursions may or may not have performed, Egypt illegally closed the Straits of Tiran specifically to Israeli shipping, everyone of Israel's border neighbors were massing their troops along Isreal's border, and Egypt's president was pledging the destruction of Israel.  Now, in Tee's mind, Israel should have just sat there and taken whatever lumps & loss of life were about to be leveled on Israel.  Minus Tee's fantasy Zionist infiltrator at wikiedia, most other historians and historical records accurately conclude how given the circumstances, Israel had no other choice, but to pre-emptively attack. 

If (hypothetically speaking of course) back in 1960, the U.S. were simply the size of CA, and you had the Mexican and Canadien military massing troops on its border, with the Mexican President laying claim as to how they were going to take back their lands, I'm not going to lose any sleep over if there happened to have been some insignificant raids by our military prior to that pledge, nor if our military pre-emptively attacked both countries, and took lands in British Columbia & Baja, in the process.  Well, Canada can keep British Columbia, too cold.

So, enjoy the revisionist history Tee.  You seem to have the most fun writing about your alternate reality of events
« Last Edit: March 15, 2007, 03:21:23 AM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

domer

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #316 on: March 15, 2007, 02:23:16 AM »
Succinctly and powerfully, I'll repeat my argument from another thread:

"From my legal training extended to the international realm, where I have little experience, I can nonetheless venture the position, based on the materials produced here, that Israel's 1967 Six-Day War was justified as a matter of international law and especially under the tenets of the just war theory. To argue otherwise is just an attempt to blow smoke up someone's ass to hide the smell of cigarettes. The UN Charter envisages defensive wars. Historically, that doctrine had been embodied in retaliatory strikes, yet wasn't logically limited to that. Especially in an age of terror and weapons of mass destruction, preemptive wars had to be considered within the orbit of the defensive war doctrine if they were tightly tied to the original notion of defense and not to the notion of aggression. Thus, as I've argued, a strike can be deemed justified if 1) it meets a standard of certainty, 2) will be of a serious character (wherein the notion of proportionality enters), and 3) is imminent, meaning on the brink or having reached a point where the prospects of events intervening or decisions being rescinded have passed the point of no return. Plainly and simply, Israel's Six-Days' War meets these criteria."

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #317 on: March 15, 2007, 08:04:09 AM »
West Bank settlements on private land, data shows

JERUSALEM: An up-to-date Israeli government register shows that 32.4 percent of the property held by Israeli settlements in the occupied West Bank is private, according to the advocacy group that sued the government to obtain the data.

The group, Peace Now, prepared an earlier report in November, also provided to The New York Times, based on a 2004 version of the Israeli government database that had been provided by an official who wanted the information published. Those figures showed that 38.8 percent of the land on which Israeli settlements were built was listed as private Palestinian land.

The data shows a pattern of illegal seizure of private land that the Israeli government has been reluctant to acknowledge or to prosecute, according to the Peace Now report. Israel has long asserted that it fully respects Palestinian private property in the West Bank and takes land there only legally or, for security reasons, temporarily. That large sections of those settlements are now confirmed by official data to be privately held land is bound to create embarrassment for Israel and further complicate the already distant prospect of a negotiated peace.

The new data, updated to the end of 2006, was provided officially by the Israeli government's Civil Administration, which governs civilian activities in the territories, in response to a lawsuit brought by Peace Now and the Movement for Freedom of Information in Israel in 2005. When the courts refused the request, the groups filed an appeal, and the earlier data was leaked to Peace Now. In January, the court ordered the Civil Administration to provide the data, in the form of digitized map information.

continued here: http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/03/14/africa/web-0314israel.php

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #318 on: March 15, 2007, 08:08:26 AM »
I'll likely leave this thread after this, since Tee's currently in broken record mode....look at the parts of Wikipedia I want you to look at, but not the summary, because that's obviously been doctored by some Zionist sympathiser

Bull... poop. Sirs, MT is just trying to get you to read beyond the summary. You're a smart guy, I imagine that when you're reading a book, you don't choose the Reader's Digest abridged version. Read the whole thing!

And MT, you will have a concussion from all of this head banging.

Amianthus

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #319 on: March 15, 2007, 08:10:07 AM »
Bull... poop. Sirs, MT is just trying to get you to read beyond the summary. You're a smart guy, I imagine that when you're reading a book, you don't choose the Reader's Digest abridged version. Read the whole thing!

Actually, MT claimed that the summary was a fraud perpetuated by Zionists.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Henny

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #320 on: March 15, 2007, 09:22:14 AM »
Actually, MT claimed that the summary was a fraud perpetuated by Zionists.

No, that's not how he said it. He is saying that Wikipedia is community edited and that someone with Zionist sympathies summarized the article. He is saying that there is MORE TO THE ARTICLE than the summary, regardless of who summarized it. It seems that Sirs has chosen to accept the summary of the article as all there is to it. Hence my reference to abridged books. Or perhaps, let's all read book reviews instead of reading the books ourselves?

domer

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #321 on: March 15, 2007, 09:42:36 AM »
I have a volume in my library, which I bought after the Iraq invasion, by a preeminent scholar on foreign policy and war from the Institute for Advanced Studies at Princeton. (I'll get his name later.) The book is entitled "Just and Unjust Wars." I perused it last night, reading the section on the Six-Days War, which the author affirmed as an acceptable preemptive strike. I'm not going to retype his argument. I'm just going to note, emphatically, that it gives the Israelis wide berth (safe transit) in negotiating the turn of legality and moral propriety. Period. I approach it this way because, despite room for differences of opinion, this book nonetheless conclusively shows that the Israeli position has currency among respected experts.

Amianthus

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #322 on: March 15, 2007, 10:22:00 AM »
No, that's not how he said it.

Some exact quotes:

"The garbage you posted was the same article with some heavy editing done either by you or some other Zionist flunky."

"Hey, I don't write the history, sirs, I just find it and post it.  Unlike you, who finds it, chops out whatever the Zionists don't want to see in there, and then posts it."
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #323 on: March 15, 2007, 11:50:37 AM »
Actually, MT claimed that the summary was a fraud perpetuated by Zionists.

No, that's not how he said it. He is saying that Wikipedia is community edited and that someone with Zionist sympathies summarized the article. He is saying that there is MORE TO THE ARTICLE than the summary, regardless of who summarized it. It seems that Sirs has chosen to accept the summary of the article as all there is to it. Hence my reference to abridged books. Or perhaps, let's all read book reviews instead of reading the books ourselves?

More to the article than the summary, huh.  Is this the road you're looking to traverse Miss Henny?  Are you also going to claim that Israel really was the aggressor in all of this and that the massing of the Arab militaries was just a.......bluff?  No intentions of going into Israel at all, based on....what again?  And Nasser really didn't really mean what he said, right?

A) I saw the article.  I noticed at no point does it refute the summary
B) I've read many an article and historical books, which pretty much corroborates the wikipedia summary
C) Since neither Tee, or yourself apparently, have 1 shred of proof, that the wikipedia summary (or nearly every other objective historical reference) has been doctored by these nefarioius zionist sympathisizers, should I not be allowed to claim that any references to Israeli provocation are really just made up doctored comments, put into wikipedia, by Anti-Semetic Palestinian sympathizers?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #324 on: March 15, 2007, 12:09:27 PM »
With regard to Wikipedia, it IS edited, as Henny points out.  I believe that there are two Wikipedia articles, one (that is called up by a Google of Six Day War) is fairly comprehensive, summarizes along the lines favoured by Ami and sirs, but then provides a lot of the background showing the lead-up to the war, and implicating the Israelis a lot more heavily than the summary would indicate.  The other Wikipedia article is the one quoted by sirs - - it is the same as the first article, MINUS all of the stuff indicating that Israel was not exactly blameless in setting the stage for the war.  Indicating, basically, the role that Israeli aggression and provocation may well have played in the troop movements that sirs would like to pretend was the sole cause of the war.

With regard to domer's comments about pre-emptive wars, this is a perfect example of a straw-man argument.  In the first place, I don't excuse everything the Egyptians and their allies did before the war.  They may even have precipitated it, but there was a longer road leading up to it than sirs was prepared to admit.  My initial objection was to sirs' dishonesty in presenting a truncated version of the facts, obviously heavily edited by Zionist supporters to remove any sign pointing towards the Israelis as contributors to the causus belli.  It was never my intention to blame either the Jews or the Arabs exclusively for the war, only to point out the deliberate suppression of facts implicating the one side and thereby casting blame entirely on the other, as sirs tried to do.

And secondly, of course, it is absolutely absurd to consider the Six Day War, HOWEVER caused, as justification for the horrific injustice and abuse suffered by the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis for what is now 39 years.  The Palestinians had nothing to do with the actions of the Jordanian, Syrian or Egyptian forces, they are all civilians, and the Fourth Geneva Convention expressly forbids the occupation and settlement of territory taken in war.  The Israelis themselves signed on to the Fourth Geneva Convention in 1949.  To justify what is happening today and every day in the West Bank on the basis of what happened during six days in 1967 is bullshit.  

The plain and obvious explanation for the occupation is greed for land and complete indifference to the human rights of others, not some illogical and unrealistic "connection" to the actions of three Arab governments for which the victims of the occupation bear no responsibility whatsoever.

And, no, Henny, I don't get a headache from this.  I see lies and I just want to put the record straight.  Sometimes I think how does all this shit go down?  In Palestine, three million people deprived of every normal civil and human right through no fault of their own for 39 years.  In Viet Nam, 2,000,000 innocent peasants incinerated, blown to bits, deformed by chemicals.  In Iraq, hundreds of thousands shot, imprisoned, raped, beaten, tortured.  How?  How does all this happen?  Are Americans all bad people?  I think, no, they can't all be bad.  They are stupid.  Ignorant.  Insulated from reality.  Easily misled.  And all this shit happens because of the lies they are told.  Lies that come down from the top but are ignorantly repeated and defended by the sirs of this generation and the sirs of the generation before, the "Vietnam sirs," whoever they were.  Sometimes I get tired of repeating myself, but as long as they persist in repeating their lies, I just won't give up and give them the  last word.   They gotta know and anyone reading this has gotta know that lies can't kill truth.  Truth will kill lies.  And the good news is, the American people ARE starting to see the truth, in greater and greater numbers.  As they always do, eventually.

Amianthus

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #325 on: March 15, 2007, 12:32:30 PM »
With regard to Wikipedia, it IS edited, as Henny points out.  I believe that there are two Wikipedia articles, one (that is called up by a Google of Six Day War) is fairly comprehensive, summarizes along the lines favoured by Ami and sirs, but then provides a lot of the background showing the lead-up to the war, and implicating the Israelis a lot more heavily than the summary would indicate.  The other Wikipedia article is the one quoted by sirs - - it is the same as the first article, MINUS all of the stuff indicating that Israel was not exactly blameless in setting the stage for the war.  Indicating, basically, the role that Israeli aggression and provocation may well have played in the troop movements that sirs would like to pretend was the sole cause of the war.

The article that Sirs quoted from was entitled "History of the Arab-Israeli conflict" and it included a summary of the '67 war. It also discussed many of the other conflicts in the region. As Sirs pointed out, nothing in the longer article specific to the '67 war that you linked in contradicts the summary presented in the article that he quoted.

It was never my intention to blame either the Jews or the Arabs exclusively for the war, only to point out the deliberate suppression of facts implicating the one side and thereby casting blame entirely on the other, as sirs tried to do.

Then you and Sirs seem to agree that both sides are to blame for the current situation. You two only seem to disagree on the future progress. You would like the Israelis to begin the process by giving up the West Bank, while Sirs would like the Arabs to begin the process by declaring that Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself.

obviously heavily edited by Zionist supporters to remove any sign pointing towards the Israelis as contributors to the causus belli.

You would think that a lawyer would spell casus belli correctly. And besides, even the article you supplied listed the casus belli as Egypt's aggression.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

sirs

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #326 on: March 15, 2007, 12:47:13 PM »
Excellent summary Ami.  However, being such, it must then have been doctored by a Zionist sympathizer        ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #327 on: March 15, 2007, 06:34:47 PM »
<<The article that Sirs quoted from was entitled "History of the Arab-Israeli conflict" and it included a summary of the '67 war. It also discussed many of the other conflicts in the region. >> 

sirs chose to quote from an article which in summary deleted any and all facts indicating that previous acts of aggression by Israel had taken place before the aggressive Arab acts that purportedly led Israel to launch a pre-emptive strike.  This was obviously misleading as without the earlier Israeli aggression mentioned, one could easily conclude that Israel was the sole innocent party to the war and that it was merely responding to unprovoked aggression.  The fact that the article dealt with other conflicts (and thus would necessarily shorten its treatment of the particular war being discussed) might have excused sirs from originally quoting from it, but to continue to use the article's abridged factual account when the longer article's fuller scope was made available is just fraudulent.  Moreover since the shorter article was merely the longer one minus the Zionist-unfriendly facts, it was obvious who had done the doctoring.

<<As Sirs pointed out, nothing in the longer article specific to the '67 war that you linked in contradicts the summary presented in the article that he quoted.>>

The facts that were left out explained the summary, cast Israel in a new light (partly the author of the situation rather than its innocent victim.)  The Menachem Begin quote did in fact contradict, if not the summary, then the inference that one draws from the summary, that Israel was the innocent victim of circumstance and had no choice but the pre-emptive strike.

<<Then you and Sirs seem to agree that both sides are to blame for the current situation.>>

No, I was referring to the causes of the Six Day War.  If by "the current situation" you mean the occupation only, I'd say that the Jews are 100% to blame for it - - it's absurd to blame it on the Six Day War.  If you mean the more general problem of the occupation and the hatred between the two peoples, then I'd say that both are to blame.

<<You two only seem to disagree on the future progress. You would like the Israelis to begin the process by giving up the West Bank, while Sirs would like the Arabs to begin the process by declaring that Israel has a right to exist and to defend itself.>>

At this point it doesn't matter if there is a peace process or not.  The occupation is wrong and Israe DOES have a right to exist and defend itself whether the Arabs admit it or not.  Israel as the major wrongdoer obviously has to take the initiative and get out of the West Bank.  It's not illegal for the Arabs to remain silent on Israel's right to exist and defend itself; it's not even illegal for them to deny those rights.  But it is very illegal for Israel to occupy the West Bank.  In practical terms:  as long as Israel is well-defended, it is of very little importance to the Israelis whether or not their neighbours declare their right to exist; OTOH, the occupation is a daily cross that every West Bank Palestinian bears.  THAT is the true source of the conflict, not some asinine declaration that the Arabs make or fail to make.

Oh and thanks for correcting my spelling.  I've spelled it causus belli since I was in high school and I just figured that an awful lot of people were spelling it wrong.  Wikipedia says I fell into a common spelling error.  Random House Unabridged Dictionary Second Edition takes your side.  I give up.  Shoot me.




The_Professor

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #328 on: March 15, 2007, 07:17:36 PM »
MT, you are a lawyer? What type? We've got one here in GA you can have: her name is Danielle H. We'll ship her up to you in Canada if you need more help. Plane & I both will pay the shipping...:-)
« Last Edit: March 16, 2007, 01:13:05 PM by The_Professor »

Michael Tee

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Re: And we're supposed to "talk" to these folks
« Reply #329 on: March 15, 2007, 08:13:26 PM »
Ami wants to call me a lawyer, Professor, that's OK with me.  Nothing wrong with the legal profession.  But I make a point of holding back some of my personal information, for example, real name, age, address, etc.  Occupation is one of those facts I don't like to give out.  I've never stated what it is.  If Danielle Hynes is related to the great Richard ("Race Horse") Hynes, she must be one hell of a lawyer.