Author Topic: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents  (Read 14225 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2007, 03:50:16 PM »
Hmmmmmm....Didn't we have 'evidence' of WMD's? 'Evidence' of ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda?

Yea,.......and?


"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2007, 05:57:11 PM »
Deadliest Bomb in Iraq Is Made by Iran, U.S. Says
By MICHAEL R. GORDON

WASHINGTON, Feb. 9 — The most lethal weapon directed against American troops in Iraq is an explosive-packed cylinder that United States intelligence asserts is being supplied by Iran.

The assertion of an Iranian role in supplying the device to Shiite militias reflects broad agreement among American intelligence agencies, although officials acknowledge that the picture is not entirely complete.

In interviews, civilian and military officials from a broad range of government agencies provided specific details to support what until now has been a more generally worded claim, in a new National Intelligence Estimate, that Iran is providing “lethal support” to Shiite militants in Iraq.

The focus of American concern is known as an “explosively formed penetrator,” a particularly deadly type of roadside bomb being used by Shiite groups in attacks on American troops in Iraq. Attacks using the device have doubled in the past year, and have prompted increasing concern among military officers. In the last three months of 2006, attacks using the weapons accounted for a significant portion of Americans killed and wounded in Iraq, though less than a quarter of the total, military officials say.

Because the weapon can be fired from roadsides and is favored by Shiite militias, it has become a serious threat in Baghdad. Only a small fraction of the roadside bombs used in Iraq are explosively formed penetrators. But the device produces more casualties per attack than other types of roadside bombs.

Any assertion of an Iranian contribution to attacks on Americans in Iraq is both politically and diplomatically volatile. The officials said they were willing to discuss the issue to respond to what they described as an increasingly worrisome threat to American forces in Iraq, and were not trying to lay the basis for an American attack on Iran.

The assessment was described in interviews over the past several weeks with American officials, including some whose agencies have previously been skeptical about the significance of Iran’s role in Iraq. Administration officials said they recognized that intelligence failures related to prewar American claims about Iraq’s weapons arsenal could make critics skeptical about the American claims.

The link that American intelligence has drawn to Iran is based on a number of factors, including an analysis of captured devices, examination of debris after attacks, and intelligence on training of Shiite militants in Iran and in Iraq by the Iranian Revolutionary Guard and by Hezbollah militants believed to be working at the behest of Tehran.

The Bush administration is expected to make public this weekend some of what intelligence agencies regard as an increasing body of evidence pointing to an Iranian link, including information gleaned from Iranians and Iraqis captured in recent American raids on an Iranian office in Erbil and another site in Baghdad.

The information includes interrogation reports from the raids indicating that money and weapons components are being brought into Iraq from across the Iranian border in vehicles that travel at night. One of the detainees has identified an Iranian operative as having supplied two of the bombs. The border crossing at Mehran is identified as a major crossing point for the smuggling of money and weapons for Shiite militants, according to the intelligence.

According to American intelligence, Iran has excelled in developing this type of bomb, and has provided similar technology to Hezbollah militants in southern Lebanon. The manufacture of the key metal components required sophisticated machinery, raw material and expertise that American intelligence agencies do not believe can be found in Iraq. In addition, some components of the bombs have been found with Iranian factory markings from 2006.

Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates appeared to allude to this intelligence on Friday when he told reporters in Seville, Spain, that serial numbers and other markings on weapon fragments found in Iraq point to Iran as a source.

Some American intelligence experts believe that Hezbollah has provided some of the logistical support and training to Shiite militias in Iraq, but they assert that such steps would not be taken without Iran’s blessing.

“All source reporting since 2004 indicates that Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Corps-Quds Force is providing professionally-built EFPs and components to Iraqi Shia militants,” notes a still-classified American intelligence report that was prepared in 2006.

“Based on forensic analysis of materials recovered in Iraq,” the report continues, “Iran is assessed as the producer of these items.”

The United States, using the Swiss Embassy in Tehran as an intermediary, has privately warned the Iranian government to stop providing the military technology to Iraqi militants, a senior administration official said. The British government has issued similar warnings to Iran, according to Western officials. Officials said that the Iranians had not responded.

An American intelligence assessment described to The New York Times said that “as part of its strategy in Iraq, Iran is implementing a deliberate, calibrated policy — approved by Supreme Leader Khamenei and carried out by the Quds Force — to provide explosives support and training to select Iraqi Shia militant groups to conduct attacks against coalition targets.” The reference was to Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the Iranian leader, and to an elite branch of Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards Command that is assigned the task of carrying out paramilitary operations abroad.

“The likely aim is to make a military presence in Iraq more costly for the U.S.,” the assessment said.

Other officials believe Iran is using the attacks to send a warning to the United States that it can inflict casualties on American troops if the United States takes a more forceful posture toward it.

Iran has publicly denied the allegations that it is providing military support to Shiite militants in Iraq. Javad Zarif, Iran’s ambassador to the United Nations, wrote in an Op-Ed article published on Thursday in The Times that the Bush administration was “trying to make Iran its scapegoat and fabricating evidence of Iranian activities in Iraq.”

The explosively formed penetrator, detonated on the roadside as American vehicles pass by, is capable of blasting a metal projectile through the side of an armored Humvee with devastating consequences.

American military officers say that attacks using the weapon reached a high point in December, when it accounted for a significant portion of Americans killed and wounded in Iraq. For reasons that remain unclear, attacks using the device declined substantially in January, but the weapons remain one of the principal threats to American troops in and around Baghdad, where five additional brigades of American combat troops are to be deployed under the Bush administration’s new plan.

“It is the most effective I.E.D out there,” said Lt. Col. James Danna, who led the Second Battalion, Sixth Infantry Regiment in Baghdad last year, referring to improvised explosive devices, as the roadside bombs are known by the American military. “To me it is a political weapon. There are not a lot of them out there, but every time we crack down on the Shia militias that weapon comes out. They want to keep us on our bases, keep us out of their neighborhoods and prevent us from doing our main mission, which is protecting vulnerable portions of the population.”

Adm. William Fallon, President Bush’s choice to head the Central Command, alluded to the weapon’s ability to punch through the side of armored Humvees in his testimony to Congress last month.

“Equipment that was, we thought, pretty effective in protecting our troops just a matter of months ago is now being challenged by some of the techniques and devices over there,” Admiral Fallon said. “So I’m learning as we go in that this is a fast-moving ballgame.”

Mr. Gates told reporters last week that he had heard there had been cases in which the weapon “can take out an Abrams tank.”

The increasing use of the weapon is the latest twist in a lethal game of measure and countermeasure that has been carried out throughout the nearly four-year-old Iraq war. Using munitions from Iraq’s vast and poorly guarded arsenal, insurgents developed an array of bombs to strike the more heavily armed and technologically superior American military.

In response, the United States military deployed armored Humvees, which in turn spawned the development of even more potent roadside bombs. American officials say that the first suspected use of the penetrator occurred in late 2003 and that attacks have risen steadily since then.

To make the weapon, a metal cylinder is filled with powerful explosives. A metal concave disk manufactured on a special press is fixed to the firing end.

Several of the cylinders are often grouped together in an array. The weapon is generally triggered when American vehicles drive by an infrared sensor, which operates on the same principle as a garage door opener. The sensor is impervious to the electronic jamming the American military uses to try to block other remote-control attacks.

When an American vehicle crosses the beam, the explosives in the cylinders are detonated, hurling their metal lids at targets at a tremendous speed. The metal changes shape in flight, forming into a slug that penetrate many types of armor.

In planning their attacks, Shiite militias have taken advantage of the tactics employed by American forces in Baghdad. To reduce the threat from suicide car bombs and minimize the risk of inadvertently killing Iraqi civilians, American patrols and convoys have been instructed to keep their distance from civilian traffic. But that has made it easier for the Shiite militias to attack American vehicles. When they see American vehicles approaching, they activate the infrared sensors.

According to American intelligence agencies, the Iranians are also believed to have provided Shiite militants with rocket-propelled grenades, shoulder-fired antiaircraft missiles, mortars, 122-millimeter rockets and TNT.

Among the intelligence that the United States is expected to make public this weekend is information indicating that some of these weapons said to have been made in Iran were carried into Iraq in recent years. Examples include a shoulder-fired antiaircraft missile that was fired at a plane flying near the Baghdad airport in 2004 but which failed to launch properly; an Iranian rocket-propelled grenade made in 2006; and an Iranian 81-millimeter mortar made in 2006.

Assessments by American intelligence agencies say there is no indication that there is any kind of black-market trade in the Iranian-linked roadside bombs, and that shipments of the components are being directed to Shiite militants who have close links to Iran. The American military has developed classified techniques to try to counter the sophisticated weapon.

Marine officials say that weapons have not been found in the Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, adding to the view that the device is an Iranian-supplied and Shiite-employed weapon.

To try to cut off the supply, the American military has sought to focus on the cells of Iranian Revolutionary Guard operatives it asserts are in Iraq. American intelligence agencies are concerned that the Iranians may respond by increasing the supply of the weapons.

“We are working day and night to disassemble these networks that do everything from bring the explosives to the point of construction, to how they’re put together, to who delivers them, to the mechanisms that are used to have them go off,” Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said last week. “It is instructive that at least twice in the last month, that in going after the networks, we have picked up Iranians.”

Article
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2007, 05:58:13 PM »
Hmmmmmm....

Didn't we have 'evidence' of WMD's? 'Evidence' of ties between Saddam and Al Qaeda?

Based on this administration's record of fixing the 'evidence', I'm gonna take a lot of convincing.


I do not think that there is a record of"fixing"evidence in this administration.

I also do not think that there is any push from this administration twards invadeing Iran.

Am I wrong on one count or two?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2007, 06:09:24 PM »
Deadliest Bomb in Iraq Is Made by Iran, U.S. Says
By MICHAEL R. GORDON

WASHINGTON, Feb. 9 — The most lethal weapon directed against American troops in Iraq is an explosive-packed cylinder that United States intelligence asserts is being supplied by Iran.

The assertion of an Iranian role in supplying the device to Shiite militias reflects broad agreement among American intelligence agencies, although officials acknowledge that the picture is not entirely complete.


To make the weapon, a metal cylinder is filled with powerful explosives. A metal concave disk manufactured on a special press is fixed to the firing end.

Several of the cylinders are often grouped together in an array. The weapon is generally triggered when American vehicles drive by an infrared sensor, which operates on the same principle as a garage door opener. The sensor is impervious to the electronic jamming the American military uses to try to block other remote-control attacks.

When an American vehicle crosses the beam, the explosives in the cylinders are detonated, hurling their metal lids at targets at a tremendous speed. The metal changes shape in flight, forming into a slug that penetrate many types of armor.

In planning their attacks, Shiite militias have taken advantage of the tactics employed by American forces in Baghdad. To reduce the threat from suicide car bombs and minimize the risk of inadvertently killing Iraqi civilians, American patrols and convoys have been instructed to keep their distance from civilian traffic. But that has made it easier for the Shiite militias to attack American vehicles. When they see American vehicles approaching, they activate the infrared sensors.

According to American intelligence agencies, the Iranians are also believed to have provided Shiite militants with rocket-propelled grenades, shoulder-fired antiaircraft missiles, mortars, 122-millimeter rockets and TNT.

Among the intelligence that the United States is expected to make public this weekend is information indicating that some of these weapons said to have been made in Iran were carried into Iraq in recent years. Examples include a shoulder-fired antiaircraft missile that was fired at a plane flying near the Baghdad airport in 2004 but which failed to launch properly; an Iranian rocket-propelled grenade made in 2006; and an Iranian 81-millimeter mortar made in 2006.

Assessments by American intelligence agencies say there is no indication that there is any kind of black-market trade in the Iranian-linked roadside bombs, and that shipments of the components are being directed to Shiite militants who have close links to Iran. The American military has developed classified techniques to try to counter the sophisticated weapon.

Marine officials say that weapons have not been found in the Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, adding to the view that the device is an Iranian-supplied and Shiite-employed weapon.

To try to cut off the supply, the American military has sought to focus on the cells of Iranian Revolutionary Guard operatives it asserts are in Iraq. American intelligence agencies are concerned that the Iranians may respond by increasing the supply of the weapons.

“We are working day and night to disassemble these networks that do everything from bring the explosives to the point of construction, to how they’re put together, to who delivers them, to the mechanisms that are used to have them go off,” Gen. Peter Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said last week. “It is instructive that at least twice in the last month, that in going after the networks, we have picked up Iranians.”

Article


I have read of this type of bomb before  , I don't think it is impossible to improvise it but it requires the right knowledge , a good shop , and it would be very hard indeed to standardize and produce as  a dependable standard product . Since these are showing up in waves and large numbers this seems consistant with arrivals of shipments  from a foreign suppler.

I agree with the assessment that the point of the weapon is making it difficult to protect the innocent , the moderate and the friendly .
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 12:10:31 AM by Plane »

Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2007, 12:10:19 AM »
 <<I do not think that there is a record of"fixing"evidence in this administration.>>

Let's put it this way, there are two schools of thought on the subject.  One is that Bush lied and he fixed the evidence to back up his lie.  The other is that Bush and his entire administration were misled by evidence that was not found convincing by many other countries including a majority of the UN Security Council members and Canada.  They are therefore either dishonest or incredibly dumb and easily misdirected.  In neither case is there any good reason for trusting in their good judgment.

<<I also do not think that there is any push from this administration twards invadeing Iran.>>

You mean apart from their constant publishing of "expert" opinions stating that most U.S. active service deaths in Iraq are caused by weapons manufactured in Iran and delivered to "insurgent" groups by Iranans?"

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2007, 02:18:24 AM »
<<I do not think that there is a record of"fixing"evidence in this administration.>>

Let's put it this way, there are two schools of thought on the subject.  One is that Bush lied and he fixed the evidence to back up his lie.  The other is that Bush and his entire administration were misled by evidence that was not found convincing by many other countries including a majority of the UN Security Council members and Canada.  They are therefore either dishonest or incredibly dumb and easily misdirected.  In neither case is there any good reason for trusting in their good judgment.

<<I also do not think that there is any push from this administration twards invadeing Iran.>>

You mean apart from their constant publishing of "expert" opinions stating that most U.S. active service deaths in Iraq are caused by weapons manufactured in Iran and delivered to "insurgent" groups by Iranans?"


"...that was not found convincing by many other countries .."...  Many , most, who do you mean? The list of those who agreed with the assesment of Saddam as a hoarder of WMD is often visited here .

"... their constant publishing ..."... Of the truth? Is the Bush Administrtion the sole sorce of information embarrassing to the govenment of Iran?

  Repeatedly the administration has stated in recent months that they are not planning an invasion of Iran , and thy have nee lied to us yet I think that thy deserve the trust that Iran does not.
The main contradiction is from Iran itself where beating a war drum is good for business and continuity of government.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2007, 03:07:11 AM by Plane »

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2007, 02:33:00 AM »
Quote
I do not think that there is a record of"fixing"evidence in this administration.

I also do not think that there is any push from this administration twards invadeing Iran.

Am I wrong on one count or two?

Yes.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2007, 03:11:14 AM »
Quote
I do not think that there is a record of"fixing"evidence in this administration.

I also do not think that there is any push from this administration twards invadeing Iran.

Am I wrong on one count or two?

Yes.

can't be

Could you quote President Bush  , Vice President Cheny, Secretary Rice , or someone of consequence saying that we need to invade Iran?

I may have to continue to think you wrong on both of these counts.

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2007, 03:45:59 AM »
Quote
Could you quote President Bush  , Vice President Cheny, Secretary Rice , or someone of consequence saying that we need to invade Iran?

Why should I? Haven't they made it perfectly clear that they are looking for an excuse that will inflame the American public enough to allow them to somehow get us into a war with Iran? They're not stupid enough to come right out and say they want war with Iran, especially after the mess they've made in Iraq, but they are doing their damnedest to provoke a war, a la Iraq, all the while trying to deny that is what they are doing.

Quote
I may have to continue to think you wrong on both of these counts.

Feel free. I wish I were. A lot of people tried to convince me I was wrong about Iraq, too.

Care for some Flavor Aid?
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2007, 04:59:39 AM »
Quote
Could you quote President Bush  , Vice President Cheny, Secretary Rice , or someone of consequence saying that we need to invade Iran?

Why should I? Haven't they made it perfectly clear that they are looking for an excuse that will inflame the American public enough to allow them to somehow get us into a war with Iran?
No they have not, and that is why you cannot provide such a quote.

Quote
They're not stupid enough to come right out and say they want war with Iran, especially after the mess they've made in Iraq, but they are doing their damnedest to provoke a war, a la Iraq, all the while trying to deny that is what they are doing.
I doubt that president Bush is dictateing the behavior if the Iranians , and I don't doubt that the Iranians are trying to regain their status as the premininent American Killers a they were in the Eightys and Ninetys.
Quote
Quote
I may have to continue to think you wrong on both of these counts.

Feel free. I wish I were. A lot of people tried to convince me I was wrong about Iraq, too.

Care for some Flavor Aid?


Shure ,how about some flavord with any evidence at all that the bad behavior of Iran is even slightly exaggerated?
Without the flavor of evidence I would rather let you have the Koolaid .

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2007, 01:57:52 PM »
Quote
I don't doubt that the Iranians are trying to regain their status as the premininent American Killers a they were in the Eightys and Ninetys.


Really? That's news to me.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2007, 08:03:03 PM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing



A mushroom cloud rises from the rubble of the bombed barracks at Beirut International Airport.
The death toll was 241 American servicemen: 220 Marines, 18 Navy personnel and 3 Army soldiers. Sixty Americans were injured. In the attack on the French barracks, 58 paratroopers were killed and 15 injured. In addition, the elderly Lebanese custodian of the Marines' building was killed in the first blast.[1] The wife and four children of a Lebanese janitor at the French building also were killed.[2]

.........the Free Islamic Revolutionary Movement, identified the two suicide bombers as Abu Mazen and Abu Sijaan.

............many (notably the U.S. government) believe [2] that the Hezbollah, a Lebanese based militant group backed by Iran and Syria, was responsible for this bombing as well as the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut in April.

This was the deadliest single-day death toll for the United States Marine Corps since the Battle of Iwo Jima

In retaliation for the attacks, France launched an air strike in the Beqaa Valley against Iranian Revolutionary Guard positions. President Reagan assembled his national security team and planned to target the Sheik Abdullah barracks in Baalbek, Lebanon, which housed Iranian Revolutionary Guards believed to be training Hezbollah fighters.[3] But Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger aborted the mission, reportedly because of his concerns that it would harm U.S. relations with other Arab nations.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/05/30/iran.barracks.bombing/
Iran is responsible for the 1983 suicide bombing of a U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, that killed 241 American servicemen, a U.S. District Court judge ruled

http://www.beirut-memorial.org/history/index.html


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=N2ViMTQ1NTllMjAxZDVmNjg3ZjIyMWRlMWU5OWE3N2M=

".......the “Party of God” (Hizb Allah) claimed in its manifesto to be


the vanguard … made victorious by God in Iran. There the vanguard succeeded to lay down the bases of a Muslim state which plays a central role in the world. We obey the orders of one leader, wise and just, that of our tutor and faqih (jurist) who fulfills all the necessary conditions: [Ayatollah] Ruhollah Musawi Khomeini. God save him!
Over the quarter century that followed, Hezbollah received billions in aid from Iran, as well as aid, logistical support, and safe haven from Syria, with which it works hand-in-glove to strangle Lebanon and wage war against Israel.

Hezbollah’s founding quickly resulted in a spate of kidnappings, torture, and bombing. (See this useful timeline from CAMERA.) In April 1983, for example, a Hezbollah car bomb killed 63 people, including eight CIA officials, at the U.S. embassy in Beirut. More infamously, the organization six months later truck-bombed a military barracks in Beirut, murdering 241 United States Marines (and killing 58 French soldiers in a separate attack). These operations, like many other Hezbollah atrocities, were orchestrated by Imad Mugniyah, long the organization’s most ruthless operative.

On December 12, 1983, the U.S. embassy in Kuwait was bombed, killing six and wounding scores of others. The bombers were tied to al-Dawa, a terror organization backed by Iran and leading the Shiite resistance against Saddam Hussein’s Iraqi regime (with which Iran was at war). The leader of Dawa’s “jihad office” in Syria at the time was none other than Nouri al-Maliki — now the prime Minister of Iraq (and who, having opposed the U.S. invasion of Iraq, currently squabbles with American authorities, draws his country ever closer to Iran and Syria, and professes his support for Hezbollah). Among the “Dawa 17” convicted and sentenced to death for the bombing was Imad Mugniyah’s cousin and brother in law, Youssef Badreddin. (Badreddin escaped in the chaos of Saddam’s 1990 invasion of Kuwait.)

Meanwhile, in 1984, Hezbollah bombed both the U.S. embassy annex in Beirut, killing two, and a restaurant near the U.S. Air Force base in Torrejon, Spain, killing 18 American servicemen. On March 16 of that year, Hezbollah operatives kidnapped William Francis Buckley, the CIA’s station chief in Beirut. He was whisked to Damascus and onto Tehran where he became one of the hostages whose detention led to the Iran/Contra affair. Under Mugniyah’s direction, Buckley was tortured for 15 months, dying of a heart attack under that duress.

Hezbollah hijackers seized a Kuwait Airlines plane in December 1984, murdering four of the passengers, including two Americans. Six months later, Hezbollah operatives hijacked TWA Flight 847 after it left Greece. The jihadists discovered that one of their hostages was a U.S. Navy diver named Robert Stethem. They beat him severely and then shot him to death before dumping his body onto the tarmac of Beirut airport. In early 1988, Hezbollah kidnapped and ultimately murdered Colonel William Higgins, a U.S. Marine serving in Lebanon.





Michael Tee

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12605
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2007, 11:34:25 PM »
<<"...that was not found convincing by many other countries .."...  Many , most, who do you mean? The list of those who agreed with the assesment of Saddam as a hoarder of WMD is often visited here .>>

More countries did not buy it than those who did buy it.  In earlier reply to Ami, I indicated my reasons for believing that the U.S. would not be able to convince a simple majority of the UN Security Council of the need for an immediate invasion of Iraq.  My own country, Russia, China, France and Germany did not buy the Bush administration's bullshit.  If they weren't lying (and I am convinced that they were) then they had to be pretty God-damned stupid and pig-headed to believe what the Russians, Chinese, French and Germans thought was pure BS.  These are some of the most experienced and competent intelligence services in the world.

<<"... their constant publishing ..."... Of the truth? >>

How do you know it's the truth?  They've used faked evidence before.  If they're not puthing for war with Iraq, why the constant spate of articles from Pentagon sources about how the evil Iranians are behind the production and distribution of IEDs in Iraq?

<<Is the Bush Administrtion the sole sorce of information embarrassing to the govenment of Iran?>>

Of course not, I'm sure the Mossad has its hand in this too.

 <<Repeatedly the administration has stated in recent months that they are not planning an invasion of Iran , and thy have nee lied to us yet >>

They lied to you plenty of times.  Think "WMD."  Think "Saddam-al Qaeda link."  Think "mobile chemical-warfare labs."  Think "we're winning."  Think "Mission Accomplished."   

<<I think that thy deserve the trust that Iran does not.>>

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice . . . .


hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2007, 12:07:57 AM »
Now look around, Plane, and google up how much military aid we gave to Israel in the 80's and 90's that they used against the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, et al, as our surrogates, much the same as Hezbollah served as their surrogates.

And while you're at it, look up preeminent (which is, I presume, what you were trying to say).

As someone pointed out, when referring to American deaths in Iraq, more have been killed in auto crashes...I would add plane crashes during those years...cancer...heart disease...and I'd almost figure a safe bet would be more have died of hangnails during those years. Hardly makes the Iranians, or Hezbollah, the preeminent killers of Americans during that time.
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Gates: U.S. has evidence of Iran helping insurgents
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2007, 12:27:39 AM »
Now look around, Plane, and google up how much military aid we gave to Israel in the 80's and 90's that they used against the Palestinians, Lebanese, Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians, et al, as our surrogates, much the same as Hezbollah served as their surrogates.

And while you're at it, look up preeminent (which is, I presume, what you were trying to say).

As someone pointed out, when referring to American deaths in Iraq, more have been killed in auto crashes...I would add plane crashes during those years...cancer...heart disease...and I'd almost figure a safe bet would be more have died of hangnails during those years. Hardly makes the Iranians, or Hezbollah, the preeminent killers of Americans during that time.


Although disease probly killed more Bear than Davy Crockett , he killed suffecint bear to secure his political carreer , this  has a seeming of simularity.

I don't have a figure for the number of Americans killed by hangnail compliations , but the terrorist orginisation with the best score untill 2001 was Hezbollah.

I should feel good about this because Americans like Robert Stetham or the Airmen in the Kobar Towers deserved what they got?


Well no I don't , I wouldn't mind haveing a peacefull discussion with any of the leadershp that wanted to do reasonable things, ut I don't want to change anything in reward for mistreating Americans or Iriquis .