Author Topic: Barak or Hillary?  (Read 3441 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

hnumpah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2483
  • You have another think coming. Use it.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Barak or Hillary?
« on: February 10, 2007, 03:37:42 PM »


Alen Lauzan Falcon, Santiago, Chile
"I love WikiLeaks." - Donald Trump, October 2016

Brassmask

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2600
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2007, 04:06:45 PM »
We're all going to be laughing about this kind of stuff in a year.  We'll laugh that Obama was ever considered a frontrunner and we'll laugh the same way about Hillary if Gore gets in.

Lyndon

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2007, 04:19:31 PM »
In what should be the most exciting presidential race in years it is somewhat disappointing these two are the front runners for the democratic race.  Five years ago I would have loved Hilary to be President. Things have of course changed since then. Barak Obama has charisma and a certain something about him but what? I like the guy but I am just curious about some of the statements he has made, this one in particular: " I stand here knowing that my story is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who came before me, and that, in no other country on Earth, is my story even possible." Can someone explain to me exactly what is so unique about his story? I am tempted to say his 'story' has already been repeated in many nations on earth (thus throwing into doubt the last bit of that blurb) but until I can understand his particular uniqueness I cannot offer concrete examples.
I am disappointed Gore has apparently ruled himself out. That would have been the hot chilli sauce on the cake.

On the Republican side I cannot enthuse myself for any of the current candidates. But if Chuck Hagel were to chuck his hat in the ring......

 

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2007, 05:50:30 PM »
I like the guy but I am just curious about some of the statements he has made, this one in particular: " I stand here knowing that my story is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who came before me, and that, in no other country on Earth, is my story even possible." Can someone explain to me exactly what is so unique about his story? I am tempted to say his 'story' has already been repeated in many nations on earth (thus throwing into doubt the last bit of that blurb) but until I can understand his particular uniqueness I cannot offer concrete examples.


 


A child of Immigrants making a name for himself is considered ,by Americans, to be the American story.

I know that it is pretty much also the story of Argentina , Australia ,Brazil, etc. etc...

So it is not perfectly precise to say it is "unique" rather it is a concept that we glorify as our own so well that we miss the news that we have been emulated elsewhere.

Think not too much on this error , most Amercans are this sort of provincial.

Think rather how it could be otherwise , there is a long list of contries that welcome immigrants less , and are what we would be if the "know nothing" party of nativists had been better able to take power.

Lyndon

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2007, 06:20:28 AM »
 


A child of Immigrants making a name for himself is considered ,by Americans, to be the American story.

I know that it is pretty much also the story of Argentina , Australia ,Brazil, etc. etc...

So it is not perfectly precise to say it is "unique" rather it is a concept that we glorify as our own so well that we miss the news that we have been emulated elsewhere.

Think not too much on this error , most Amercans are this sort of provincial.

Think rather how it could be otherwise , there is a long list of contries that welcome immigrants less , and are what we would be if the "know nothing" party of nativists had been better able to take power.
[/quote]

There is nothing you say there that is not true, but I don't really consider him the child of immigrants. His mother was an American and his father never seems to have been an immigrant, rather he was a student at U of Hawaii and then Harvard after which he seems to have moved straight back to Kenya to work as an economist. This may seem like a minor little gripe of mine and on the face of it not worth mentioning, but I do mention it because, despite your explanation, I still fail to see how his story is 'so unique it is not even possible on any country on earth'

I wonder if his foreign policy will, should he become President, also reflect the concept of American exceptionalism which he seems to believe in?

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2007, 12:21:51 PM »
Quote
I wonder if his foreign policy will, should he become President, also reflect the concept of American exceptionalism which he seems to believe in?


If he does not proclaim American exceptionalism , will anyone in America vote for him?


Does the  hopefull canadte for  the President of France proclaim that France is terriffic? There may be better food in New Orleans, better air conditioning in Florida, better Music in Puerto Rico , but would proclaiming it to be so
earn a single French vote?

I hope not, I am a rather Provinchal American American myself but I have been places and noticed a remarkable sameness in human nature  everywhere I went . I would expect that in any countrys choice of leader the Leaders positive attitude twards that partcular country would be important.

Winston Chirchill called England special a few times didn't he?  Did he wax hyperbolic or poetic ever?

Lyndon

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2007, 01:03:26 PM »
<<If he does not proclaim American exceptionalism , will anyone in America vote for him?


Does the hopefull canadte for the President of France proclaim that France is terriffic? There may be better food in New Orleans, better air conditioning in Florida, better Music in Puerto Rico , but would proclaiming it to be so
earn a single French vote?

I hope not, I am a rather Provinchal American American myself but I have been places and noticed a remarkable sameness in human nature everywhere I went . I would expect that in any countrys choice of leader the Leaders positive attitude twards that partcular country would be important.>>

From the examples you have cited I think we may be viewing the interpretation of exceptionalism from very different viewpoints. If the President  of France says France is terrific he is expressing pride in his country. Nothing wrong with that. However what he is not saying is that France has an exceptional position among nations.  That has come to be the common definition of American exceptionalism. That is rather more than simply seeking results in the nations best interests or protecting the positions of the nation.

I think US interests are ill served by framing its foreign policy from a position of exceptionalism. The US has to get round the table with other nations on any number of matters from trade to security to energy to environmental concerns. If the US comes to that table adopting the policy of exceptionalism it does nothing to win friends and influence people and that means it does nothing to achieve the objectives it was seeking.

domer

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2007, 02:09:24 PM »
What a bunch of blather, for nothing. Indeed, Barack himself does not claim his personal saga as "unique," merely induplicitable in any other country. That leaves a lot of room for US-immigration success stories comparable to his, and, as a matter of acceptable hyperbole in political discourse touting America's strengths (among them, strength from diversity), a nod to American "exceptionalism" in its best possible sense: the melting pot, the meeting ground, the place, ultimatelly, where value is the most precious calling card. Beyond that, Barack is in fact unique, a man one generation removed from Africa who is a genuine phenomenon, at least in my experienced life, a president of the Harvard Law Review, a bona fide charismatic and creative political thinker and actor, who happens to be, at age 45, a leadingg viable contender for the Presidency of the United States.

Hillary is exceptional as well. So is Al Gore whether or not he gets into the race. And the list doesn't stop there: this promises to be one of the most, if nnot the most, talented Democratic fields ever to seek the US presidency.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2007, 02:22:39 PM »
What a bunch of blather, for nothing...Barack is in fact unique, a man one generation removed from Africa who is a genuine phenomenon...Hillary is exceptional as well. So is Al Gore whether or not he gets into the race. And the list doesn't stop there: this promises to be one of the most, if nnot the most, talented Democratic fields ever to seek the US presidency.

Well, there's 1 person's opinion

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Lyndon

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2007, 02:22:59 PM »
<<merely induplicitable in any other country>>

That is the meat of it. That is the nonsensical part. Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Nayamko Sabuni, Nicholas Sarkozy, Michael Howard just to name four out of thousands would dismiss Obama's 'in no other country on earth is my story even possible' as ridiculous hyperbole.

domer

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2007, 02:27:01 PM »
What an insubstantial, bullshit point, Lyndon, for the reason I stated and for others unexpressed.

Lyndon

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2007, 02:30:38 PM »
<<What an insubstantial, bullshit point, Lyndon, for the reason I stated and for others unexpressed.>>

I diagree. Those people I mentioned show the fallacy of Obama's hyerbole.

domer

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2007, 02:33:02 PM »
Have any of them, one generation removed from the Dark Continent, been a viable, indeed leading candidate for the presidency of the world's only superpower?

Lyndon

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2007, 02:56:28 PM »
<<Have any of them, one generation removed from the Dark Continent, been a viable, indeed leading candidate for the presidency of the world's only superpower?>>

One of them, not even one generation removed from Africa (I prefer to use its more common name), is a viable contender for the post of Prime Minister for her country. Again, Obama said 'in no other country on earth, is my story even possible'. He did not say 'in no other superpower on earth, is my story even possible'. He said 'in no other country'. Now, to me the facts would seem to prove him wrong. Was he incorrect in his statement?

domer

  • Guest
Re: Barak or Hillary?
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2007, 03:04:16 PM »
No, he was correct both literally, as I've demonstrated, but more importantly rhetorically, as hyperbole on such matters is acceptable for domestic political discourse. I'm tiring of this quickly, Lyndon. Your point, I repeat, is petty and, I suspect, ill-meaning.