Author Topic: Down with Creationism!  (Read 8828 times)

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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2007, 11:25:35 PM »
Nevertheless, even if 46% think that humans were created less than 10,000 years ago, that is pretty sad.
There are numerous carbon-dated bones that are far older than that.
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The_Professor

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2007, 11:33:21 PM »
It should be noted that carbon dating is not entirely accurate and is based upon possible suspect assumptions.

Amianthus

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2007, 11:52:39 PM »
It should be noted that carbon dating is not entirely accurate and is based upon possible suspect assumptions.

It's accurate within it's margin of error, and is not based on "suspect assumptions" - it's based on science.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

The_Professor

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2007, 12:33:49 AM »
Well, let's see:

We can take a sample of air, count how many 12C atoms there are for every 14C atom, and calculate the 14C/12C ratio. Because 14C is so well mixed up with 12C, we expect to find that this ratio is the same if we sample a leaf from a tree, or a part of your body.

In living things, although 14C atoms are constantly changing back to 14N, they are still exchanging carbon with their surroundings, so the mixture remains about the same as in the atmosphere. However, as soon as a plant or animal dies, the 14C atoms which decay are no longer replaced, so the amount of 14C in that once-living thing decreases as time goes on. In other words, the 14C/12C ratio gets smaller. So, we have a "clock" which starts ticking the moment something dies.

Obviously, this works only for things which were once living. It cannot be used to date volcanic rocks, for example.

The rate of decay of 14C is such that half of an amount will convert back to 14N in 5,730 years (plus or minus 40 years). This is the "half-life." So, in two half-lives, or 11,460 years, only one-quarter of that in living organisms at present, then it has a theoretical age of 11,460 years. Anything over about 50,000 years old, should theoretically have no detectable 14C left. That is why radiocarbon dating cannot give millions of years. In fact, if a sample contains 14C, it is good evidence that it is not millions of years old.

However, things are not quite so simple. First, plants discriminate against carbon dioxide containing 14C. That is, they take up less than would be expected and so they test older than they really are. Furthermore, different types of plants discriminate differently. This also has to be corrected for.

Second, the ratio of 14C/12C in the atmosphere has not been constant -- for example, it was higher before the industrial era when the massive burning of fossil fuels released a lot of carbon dioxide that was depleted in 14C. This would make things which died at that time appear older in terms of carbon dating. Then there was a rise in 14CO2 with the advent of atmospheric testing of atomic bombs in the 1950s. This would make things carbon-dated from that time appear younger than their true age.

Measurement of 14C in historically dated objects (e.g., seeds in the graves of historically dated tombs) enables the level of 14C in the atmosphere at that time to be estimated, and so partial calibration of the "clock" is possible. Accordingly, carbon dating carefully applied to items from historical times can be useful. However, even with such historical calibration, archaeologists do not regard 14C dates as absolute because of frequent anomalies. They rely more on dating methods that link into historical records.

Outside the range of recorded history, calibration of the 14C "clock is not possible.


Also, the amount of cosmic rays penetrating the earth's atmosphere affects the amount of 14C produced and therefore dating the system. The amount of cosmic rays reaching the earth varies with the sun's activity, and with the earth's passage through magnetic clouds as the solar system travels around the Milky Way galaxy.
The strength of the earth's magnetic field affects the amount of cosmic rays entering the atmosphere. A stronger magnetic field deflects more cosmic rays away from the earth. Overall, the energy of the earth's magnetic field has been decreasing, so more 14C is being produced now than in the past. This will make old things look older than they really are.

 
In addition, the Genesis flood would have greatly upset the carbon balance. The flood buried a huge amount of carbon, which became coal, oil, etc., lowering the total 12C in the biosphere (including the atmosphere -- plants regrowing after the flood absorb CO2, which is not replaced by the decay of the buried vegetation). Total 14C is also proportionately lowered at this time, but whereas no terrestrial process generates any more 12C, 14C is continually being produced, and at a rate which does not depend on carbon levels (it comes from nitrogen). Therefore, the 14C/12C ratio in plants/animals/the atmosphere before the flood had to be lower than what it is now.

Unless this effect (which is additional to the magnetic field issue just discussed) were corrected for, carbon dating of fossils formed in the flood would give ages much older than the true ages.

Creationist researchers have suggested that dates of 35,000 - 45,000 years should be re-calibrated to the biblical date of the flood.[6] Such a re-calibration makes sense of anomalous data from carbon dating -- for example, very discordant "dates" for different parts of a frozen musk ox carcass from Alaska and an inordinately slow rate of accumulation of ground sloth dung pellets in the older layers of a cave where the layers were carbon dated.

 
Also, volcanoes emit much CO2 depleted in 14C. Since the flood was accompanied by much volcanism (see Noah's Flood..., How did animals get from the Ark to isolated places?, and What About Continental Drift?), fossils formed in the early post-flood period would give radiocarbon ages older than they really are.

In summary, the carbon-14 method, when corrected for the effects of the flood, can give useful results, but needs to be applied carefully. It does not give dates of millions of years and when corrected properly fits well with the biblical flood.


Amianthus

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2007, 08:30:29 AM »
Obviously, this works only for things which were once living. It cannot be used to date volcanic rocks, for example.

Correct. There are other methods for dating non-living samples, or samples outside the date range of radiocarbon dating.

Outside the range of recorded history, calibration of the 14C "clock is not possible.

Sure it is. There are other techniques for calibration.

In addition, the Genesis flood would have greatly upset the carbon balance. The flood buried a huge amount of carbon, which became coal, oil, etc., lowering the total 12C in the biosphere (including the atmosphere -- plants regrowing after the flood absorb CO2, which is not replaced by the decay of the buried vegetation). Total 14C is also proportionately lowered at this time, but whereas no terrestrial process generates any more 12C, 14C is continually being produced, and at a rate which does not depend on carbon levels (it comes from nitrogen). Therefore, the 14C/12C ratio in plants/animals/the atmosphere before the flood had to be lower than what it is now.

There is no scientific evidence for a worldwide flood. Therefore, it does not need to be taken into account.

And all of these "calibration errors" that you claim make radiocarbon dating incorrect are actually taken into account. That is why radiocarbon dates are always given as a range of dates.
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_JS

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2007, 12:22:40 PM »
There is also dendrochronology, ice core sampling, Potassium-argon dating, thermoluminescence dating and other dating techniques.

That the world is far older than 10,000 year is well-known and scientifically accurate.

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The reason one is supposed to believe that Yeshua bin Yacob, aka Jesus Christ, was the Son of God and the Savior of Mankind is that his story is found in the Bible, which declares itself to be the Word of God.

The Bible is not a book of evidence for making a judicial case. Belief in Christ requires faith. It is rooted in the very essence of man's purpose, which is to know and love God.

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If any part of the Bible is not true, then all of it is suspect, and subject to actual scholarly analysis, which is not the same as the baloney known as "Bible studies", which merely analyze HOW it is true. Stating that Jesus drank grape juice rather than wine is one example of this sort of silliness.

Many parts of the Bible may not be "true" as in actual actions that took place in the annals of history. Some are more likely to be stories to relate a message to the people (much like the parables of Christ). Job is a good example, as are Judith and Tobit. The morals of the stories are the keys, not necessarily that every single word is historically true.

As for the Gospels, which are true, it is important to keep in mind that the authors had particular audiences in mind when writing them. Matthew, for example, is clearly writing to a Jewish audience whereas Luke is writing to a Gentile audience. The differences in early Judaic Christianity and Gentile Christianity are clearly present in both writings.

Neither of these make the Bible "suspect." Scholarly views of the Bible are done everyday.

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It was a Church of England priest and 'scholar' who in fact did add up the ages of all the lineages of the begats mentioned in the Bible and arrived at the first man (Adam) having been created in the year 4004 BC on a Thursday afternoon, I believe. So that would have been not 4000 years ago, but 6011 years ago, give or take a year. Not that it matters, because it is patent malarkey.

It was malarkey. I believe the original Bishop got it down to a year, and one of his followers got it down to not only a month and a day, but an exact time of day as well (how he did this, I have no real clue). There is no reason to believe in that dating system and science has thoroughly refuted it. Many Christians don't believe in it either.

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In any event, the number of people who believe Biblical nonsense surely causes many young Americans from becoming scientists, though probably not so many as an aversion to mathematics, which is at least partly due to the fact that people who are really enthusiastic about math can find far more gainful employment and higher status in jobs outside the teaching occupation.

It is ashame that many people see science and Christianity at odds. It doesn't have to be that way, of course. As I've said before, it was a Catholic Priest who discovered the Big Bang Theory (and many other scientists have been religious as well).

Regardless, I was one of those people who was adept at math, but found it intensely boring. I scored higher on the GRE math section than most engineers seeking a graduate degree, but I chose a different graduate studies program.


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kimba1

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2007, 01:24:32 PM »
I pretty much suck at math but for some reason i like doing math.
I enjoy the structure.
it`s only wrong when I forget how to do it.
It kinda bugs me people use calculators for the easy stuff.
I rather do math in my head than play video games.
actually I don`t even like video games.
someday i like to try card counting
that looks like fun

The_Professor

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2007, 08:07:49 AM »
Research: God did speak world into existence
Student's scientific documentation offers evidence of biblical account

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: February 11, 2007
9:35 p.m. Eastern



© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com



 

A science student in Kentucky says when the Bible records God spoke, and things were created, that's just what happened, and he can support that with scientific experiments.

"If God spoke everything into existence as the Genesis record proposes, then we should be able to scientifically prove that the construction of everything in the universe begins with a) the Holy Spirit (magnetic field); b) Light (an electric field); and c) that Light can be created by a sonic influence or sound," Samuel J. Hunt writes on his website.

"There are several documented and currently taught laboratory experiments that accurately portray the events in Genesis in sequential order, the most important being that of sonoluminescence," he wrote.

That, he described to WND, is the circumstance in which sending a sonic signal into bubbles in a fluid causes the bubbles to collapse and they release photons, or create light.

That aligns with one of the earlier descriptions of the creation by God, when, in Genesis 1:1-3, the Holy Spirit moved upon the face of the deep, which generally is considered water, and said "Let there be light," he explained.


 

God was sending a sonic influence into the waters, and basically creating light, Hunt said. He's documented his theory, and the experiments he believes back it up, in his "Episteme Scientia, the Law of All That Is."

Researchers at institutions no less than UCLA and the University of Chicago have verified the production of light from bubbles when sound is passed through a liquid, called sonoluminescence.

Hunt said he was spurred on in his work because the advanced physics and other courses he was taking were advancing propositions that sometimes didn't match up.

"The further I went, the more my questions seemed to be being answered in the Genesis record," he told WND.

His abstract states, "An examination of the sequential mathematical and experimental dual proof of the Genesis record of origins underlying the institution of all that is in the universe – from waves to matter to the mind."

Hunt said science has been proving the Genesis account in classrooms for centuries, "in spite of the fervency to promote evolution and big bang theories."

A student at Western Kentucky University in Bowling Green, Hunt said his questions started very simply.

"I asked my professors in physics and chemistry, 'What if I could scientifically prove that all matter was spoken into existence and that all matter could be manipulated by sound just as Genesis says? Wouldn't that mean God exists and created the universe?" he asked.

"Nobody's ever done that before," was the response.

His 84-page treatise, now published, addresses that, he said.

Hunt said he believes every event in Genesis can be observed to be happening daily.

"Either you experience a universe of chaos or a universe of order and processes that produce immediate and calculable results," he wrote. "The results of my research support and prove that everything that exists was spoken into existence from waves to matter to mind."

"My professors think my application of accepted laws and theories may bend the rules a bit, but the ideas are thought-provoking and progressive," he said.

The website describes the integration of several mathematical systems including "Phi, Pi, L-systems, Penrose tiling, and an all-encompassing Koch curve."

The outline, available at scienceprovescreation.com, already has sold more than 1,700 copies.

Hunt said his goal was to be able to provide experiments that would explain the Genesis creation story – in the order the Bible records events happened.

"Some of my teachers are like, 'That's complete hogwash,'" he said, "while others say, 'That's pretty interesting.'"

His goal is to bring a unity to the Christian community, "just like the founders of our nation expected and wanted from the Constitution."

The documentation of his processes, Hunt believes, could end debate.

"People want to know the truth, to have something to stand on that's not trickery and deceit," he said. "This gives people something real to touch, hang on to."


Plane

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Re: Down with Creationism!
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2007, 10:33:23 PM »
Research: God did speak world into existence
Student's scientific documentation offers evidence of biblical account

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hahahaha

This seems like a fine example of doubble talk.

Gods creation of matter and energy necessicerily used tecniques that we do not understand yet , elese we would be useing them .