Author Topic: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.  (Read 3368 times)

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Mucho

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Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« on: February 23, 2007, 12:59:46 PM »
If it were because they succeeded in Basra, they would be going to Baghdad, dontchaknow.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-brits22feb22,1,4360133.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage
THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ: BRITISH TROOP DRAWDOWN

Why the British are scaling back in Iraq
The military can't fight there and in Afghanistan without approaching 'operational failure,' one critic says. Something had to give.
By Kim Murphy
Times Staff Writer

February 22, 2007

LONDON — Britain's decision to pull 1,600 troops out of Iraq by spring, touted by U.S. and British leaders as a turning point in Iraqi sovereignty, was widely seen Wednesday as a telling admission that the British military could no longer sustain simultaneous wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.

The British military is approaching "operational failure," former defense staff chief Charles Guthrie warned this week.

"Because the British army is in essence fighting a far more intensive counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan, there's been a realization that there has to be some sort of transfer of resources from Iraq to Afghanistan," said Clive Jones, a senior lecturer in Middle East politics at the University of Leeds, who has closely followed Britain's Iraq deployment.

"It's either that, or you risk in some ways losing both," he said. "It's the classic case of 'Let's declare victory and get out.' "

Prime Minister Tony Blair's government has been pressed to add 800 troops to Afghanistan to halt a resurgent Taliban and a worrying escalation of drug trafficking, at the same time that it is beset by criticism for joining the United States in an unpopular invasion and prolonged war in Iraq. The 132nd British soldier to die in Iraq, Pvt. Luke Daniel Simpson, was buried Wednesday. He was killed Feb. 9.

The decision to draw down forces by more than 20% in the southern city of Basra means that Britain will significantly shrink its military footprint at a time when the Pentagon is increasing U.S. troop levels to battle militants to the north, in Baghdad and Al Anbar province.

The Bush administration hastened to present the British decision as an indication that the U.S.-led military operation was succeeding. Vice President Dick Cheney called the reduction "an affirmation of the fact that there are parts of Iraq where things are going pretty well," and White House Press Secretary Tony Snow said the U.S.-led coalition "remains intact" even though the roster of nations contributing troops, excluding the U.S., has fallen to 25 from 35.

But the Pentagon, in its most recent quarterly report to Congress, listed Basra as one of five cities outside Baghdad where violence remained "significant," and said the region was one of only two "not ready for transition" to Iraqi authorities.

Once a promising beacon, Basra suffers from sectarian violence as well as Shiite militia clashes over oil smuggling. Ferocious street battles have broken out between rival Shiite Muslim groups in provincial capitals such as Samawah, Kut and Diwaniya in the last year.



Congressional critics

Democratic leaders in Congress denounced the Bush administration assessment as misleading.

"No matter how the White House tries to spin it, the British government has decided to split with President Bush and begin to move their troops out of Iraq," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (D-Mass.). "This should be a wake-up call to the administration. Prime Minister Blair's announced redeployment of British troops is a stunning rejection of President Bush's high-risk Iraq policy."

U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-San Francisco) said the British decision "confirms the doubts in the minds of the American people" about the decision to boost the U.S. force.

"The president's escalation plan to send more U.S. troops to Iraq is out of step with the American people and our allies," Pelosi said in a statement. "Why are thousands of additional American troops being sent to Iraq at the same time that British troops are planning to leave?"

In Britain, Blair's opponents quickly painted the withdrawal as an admission of failure.

"The unpalatable truth is that we will leave behind a country on the brink of civil war, in which reconstruction has stalled and corruption is endemic, and a region that is a lot less stable than it was in 2003," Liberal Democratic Party leader Menzies Campbell said in Wednesday's Parliament debate on the troop drawdown.

"That is a long way short of the beacon of democracy in the Middle East that was promised some four years ago," he said.

For Blair, the decision to begin reducing Britain's 7,100 troops in the south to 5,500, with possible further withdrawals later in the year, was almost a political necessity. His Labor Party is trailing in the polls ahead of crucial regional elections in the spring. And Blair is preparing to hand over the reins of government this year, most likely to his treasury minister, fellow Labor leader Gordon Brown, who favors phasing out Britain's deployment in Iraq.

In announcing the troop reductions, Blair said they coincided with the increasing assumption of security responsibilities by Iraqi military and police forces. He said British troops would continue to patrol the Iranian border and remain at their main base in Basra through at least 2008, to assist Iraqi forces if needed.

"It is important to show the Iraqi people that we do not desire our forces to remain any longer than they are needed, but whilst they are needed, we will be at their side," Blair told Parliament.

"The situation in Basra is very different from Baghdad. There is no Sunni insurgency. There is no Al Qaeda base. There is little Shia-on-Sunni violence," despite "often intense fire" from Shiite militias targeting British troops, he said.

"What all of this means is not that Basra is how we want it to be. But it does mean that the next chapter in Basra's history can be written by Iraqis," Blair said.

Most analysts say the prime minister's assertion that significant progress had been made in securing southern Iraq stretched the facts. Though the south is not nearly as violent and chaotic as the capital and the Sunni heartland to the west, it remains jittery, unstable and frequently bloody. Shiite militias and armed gangs lord over such cities as Basra and Amarah, as well as the long, desolate stretches of roadway through the marshlands and deserts of the south.

British bases in Basra regularly come under mortar fire. British troops engage in almost daily gunfights with militiamen. In recent months, the British all but evacuated their downtown base and moved to a more secure site on the grounds of the city's airport.



Bastion for Islamists

A study on the south issued this week by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a think tank that has been sympathetic to the Bush administration's foreign policy goals, describes southern Iraq in dire terms. It notes that Basra, once one of Iraq's more liberal and cosmopolitan cities, has become a bastion for Islamists who use the south's vast oil wealth to "fill their war chests."

"The province has suffered one of the worst reversals of fortune of any area in Iraq since the fall of Saddam [Hussein]'s regime," the report says.

Military and political analysts said a British drawdown in the region could leave a vacuum that could provide shelter to militiamen displaced during stepped-up U.S.-Iraqi operations in Baghdad, in a location where Iranian influence is great.

Equally serious, they said, is the fact that Basra and its environs are a crucial supply link to U.S. forces in Baghdad.

"The fear is essentially that when the U.K. pulls out, the militias will come to control the situation, rather than the Iraqi army," said Michael J. Williams, head of the transatlantic program at the London-based Royal United Services Institute.

Although U.S. and British leaders have taken pains to deny any split in policy over Iraq, "if the security situation in Basra was perfect, should the Brits be withdrawing troops, or reallocating them someplace else where they're needed, which is Baghdad?" Williams said.

"The fact is that the troops that work best alongside the Americans are leaving the country," he said.

*

kim.murphy@latimes.com

Times staff writers Borzou Daragahi in Baghdad and James Gerstenzang, Paul Richter and Peter Spiegel in Washington contributed to this report.

*

Begin text of infobox

Coalition troops

British Prime Minister Tony Blair wants to withdraw about 1,600 troops from Iraq in coming months. Here's a look at some of the nations contributing military personnel in Iraq and how their troop levels have changed since the war began in March 2003:

X   Oct. 2003   Dec. 2005   Current
United States   130,000   160,000   132,000
Britain   7,400   8,000   7,100
South Korea   675   3,200   2,300


South Korea: Approved a one-third reduction of its forces last year.

Australia   0   900   1,450
Romania   800   863   1,000
Poland   2,400   1,400   900


Poland: Last fall authorized the extension of its troops and will pull them out by mid-2007.

Georgia   70   900   850
Denmark   400   530   300


Denmark: Announced Wednesday that it would withdraw its ground troops from southern Iraq by August and replace them with 55 soldiers in a helicopter unit.

El Salvador   360   380   380
Bulgaria   485   380   153
Czech Republic   300   102   96
Italy   3,000   2,800   0


Italy: Pulled its last troops out in September.

Netherlands   1,100   19   0
Spain   1,300   0   0


Spain: Ordered its troops out soon after the 2004 train bombings in Madrid that killed 191 people.

Ukraine   1,650   876   0
Japan   0   600   0


Japan: Last year, ended its controversial deployment, its first significant military involvement since World War II.

Honduras   360   0   0
Thailand   400   0   0


*

Numbers are based on best estimates from sources listed

**

Sources: Associated Press, Agence France-Presse, GlobalSecurity.org, Times reports and wire services. Graphics reporting by Scott Wilson, Mike Young


Plane

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2007, 01:28:12 PM »
"Because the British army is in essence fighting a far more intensive counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan, there's been a realization that there has to be some sort of transfer of resources from Iraq to Afghanistan," said Clive Jones, a senior lecturer in Middle East politics at the University of Leeds, who has closely followed Britain's Iraq deployment.

"It's either that, or you risk in some ways losing both," ....



[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


Between the two , Afghanistan is prefferred?

Mucho

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2007, 01:48:05 PM »
"Because the British army is in essence fighting a far more intensive counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan, there's been a realization that there has to be some sort of transfer of resources from Iraq to Afghanistan," said Clive Jones, a senior lecturer in Middle East politics at the University of Leeds, who has closely followed Britain's Iraq deployment.

"It's either that, or you risk in some ways losing both," ....



[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


Between the two , Afghanistan is prefferred?

Of course it is . Afghanistan has a modicum of legitimacy . There is none of that in the Iraq debacle which was just the equivalent US beating up a toothless little old lady.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 03:23:10 PM by Mucho »

Plane

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2007, 01:50:10 PM »
"Because the British army is in essence fighting a far more intensive counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan, there's been a realization that there has to be some sort of transfer of resources from Iraq to Afghanistan," said Clive Jones, a senior lecturer in Middle East politics at the University of Leeds, who has closely followed Britain's Iraq deployment.

"It's either that, or you risk in some ways losing both," ....



[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


Between the two , Afghanistan is prefferred?

Of course it is . Afghanistan has a modicum of legitimacy . There is none of that in the Iraq debacle which was just the equivalent US beating up a harmless little old lady.


You know a lot of harmless little old ladies that have the fourth largest army and third largest WMD store in the world?

Mucho

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2007, 03:28:02 PM »
You still cant get over the absolutely established fact that there were no significant WMD's when we attacked. can you?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1321386,00.html
Large armies mean nothing when they are run by  madmen. Just look at ours!

_JS

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2007, 03:30:05 PM »
Quote
You know a lot of harmless little old ladies that have the fourth largest army and third largest WMD store in the world?

Are you talking about Iraq of 2003?

I doubt they were the fourth largest army in the world and they were certainly not the third largest storehouse for WMD (considering we know the United States and Russia are #1 and #2).

I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2007, 04:37:25 PM »
Quote
You know a lot of harmless little old ladies that have the fourth largest army and third largest WMD store in the world?

Are you talking about Iraq of 2003?

I doubt they were the fourth largest army in the world and they were certainly not the third largest storehouse for WMD (considering we know the United States and Russia are #1 and #2).





No, I am talking about when the war began, 1991.

Plane

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 04:40:22 PM »
the third largest storehouse for WMD (considering we know the United States and Russia are #1 and #2).



United States and Russia are #2 and #1.

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2007, 04:48:14 PM »
Quote
United States and Russia are #2 and #1.

Thanks, I meant it interchangably though.

So Iraq had more WMD than China, France, India...? Is this measured in sheer amount or ability to do harm?

 
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2007, 07:47:51 PM »
Quote
United States and Russia are #2 and #1.

Thanks, I meant it interchangably though.

So Iraq had more WMD than China, France, India...? Is this measured in sheer amount or ability to do harm?

 


Russia had a lot more , they are still haveing trouble guarding or disposeing of it .
We are way ahead of them in the destruction process.

Yes Iraq had more , and was getting good use of it too.

Mucho

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2007, 08:00:27 PM »
Quote
United States and Russia are #2 and #1.

Thanks, I meant it interchangably though.

So Iraq had more WMD than China, France, India...? Is this measured in sheer amount or ability to do harm?

 




Russia had a lot more , they are still haveing trouble guarding or disposeing of it .
We are way ahead of them in the destruction process.

Yes Iraq had more , and was getting good use of it too.

Plane- you are obviously just making this shit up perhaps mimicking your dear leader, the Bushidiot, who makes shit up all the time.

The_Professor

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2007, 11:46:08 PM »
"Because the British army is in essence fighting a far more intensive counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan, there's been a realization that there has to be some sort of transfer of resources from Iraq to Afghanistan," said Clive Jones, a senior lecturer in Middle East politics at the University of Leeds, who has closely followed Britain's Iraq deployment.

"It's either that, or you risk in some ways losing both," ....



[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]


Between the two , Afghanistan is prefferred?

Of course it is . Afghanistan has a modicum of legitimacy . There is none of that in the Iraq debacle which was just the equivalent US beating up a toothless little old lady.

I cannot believe I am saying this, but I actually agree with you. The Afghanistan conflict is a legitimate response to 9-11 whereas Iraq is not. Iraq was a preemptive conflict, some say precedent setting. I actually feel sorry for Karzai. He's essentially a dead man. The Taliban are re-emerging, UN resources are not sufficient and we are insteas tangled up in Iraq, where, IMHO, we should be in Afghanistan instead.

Michael Tee

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2007, 11:10:34 AM »
<<I cannot believe I am saying this, but I actually agree with you. The Afghanistan conflict is a legitimate response to 9-11 whereas Iraq is not. Iraq was a preemptive conflict, some say precedent setting. I actually feel sorry for Karzai. He's essentially a dead man. The Taliban are re-emerging, UN resources are not sufficient and we are insteas tangled up in Iraq, where, IMHO, we should be in Afghanistan instead.>>

Karzai is a good man but he should never have consented to front for the Americans.  The Taliban are a bunch of murderous savages.  The last Communist leader of Afghanistan, Najibullah, was captured by the Taliban when they took Kabul.  They beat the shit out of him, castrated and mutilated him, dragged him around the main square two or three times with his ankles tied to the back bumper of a jeep and finally put him out of his misery by shooting him.  The Russians obviously let him down and I would not like to see the same thing happening to Karzai.

America has two choices: stop this bullshit in Iraq and go big-time in Afghanistan, forcing their allies to make similar increases in committment.  Seal off the border, announce a thirty-five-year occupation, take over every aspect of Afghan life, including education of the children the American way, kill or imprison every fucking Taliban and just re-structure the whole place.  Personally, I think that will fail, so they shouldn't even attempt it.  But they better save Karzai at least.  Second choice:  get the fuck out.  Understand that other people have different ways of ordering their lives, and we might not approve of them, but basically:  their country, their lives, their problem.  Adios.

Mucho

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2007, 11:57:12 AM »
>  get the fuck out.  Understand that other people have different ways of ordering their lives, and we might not approve of them, but basically:  their country, their lives, their problem.  Adios.<

99.99% of the time I would agree with this, but the Taliban are a special blend  of oppression and religious fanaticism that should be obliterated. What they did to people, especially women, puts them in a special ctategory of lunatics along with Xtian fundies. The real decider for me was when thy blew up the ancient Buddha's in Afganistan. This was a cultural outrage and loss and I am not even a Buddhist.

Plane

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Re: Why the Brits are really leaving Iraq.
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2007, 02:19:32 PM »
>  get the fuck out.  Understand that other people have different ways of ordering their lives, and we might not approve of them, but basically:  their country, their lives, their problem.  Adios.<

99.99% of the time I would agree with this, but the Taliban are a special blend  of oppression and religious fanaticism that should be obliterated. What they did to people, especially women, puts them in a special ctategory of lunatics along with Xtian fundies. The real decider for me was when thy blew up the ancient Buddha's in Afganistan. This was a cultural outrage and loss and I am not even a Buddhist.


Can we drive them out of Afganistan or just drive them underground?

Can we save Afganistan from the Taliban somehow , but hand Iraq over to the same hing?