Author Topic: At least it is not trite.  (Read 1800 times)

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Plane

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At least it is not trite.
« on: February 20, 2016, 11:15:28 AM »
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/americas-unlearned-lesson-the-forgotten-truth-about-why-we-invaded-iraq/ar-BBpAjdN

This is a well thought out essay about the lessons that should have been learned in Iraq, but were not.

I do not agree with it .

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2016, 04:11:05 PM »
There are many facts and valid points here.
It is a better explanation than any I have read.

It is also apparent to me that Olebush deliberately provoked Saddam into invading Kuwait.
The Kuwaitis were threatening to move their vast fortune in US banls into British and European banks.
They also were talking seriously of (gasp!) accepting payment for their oil in Euros, not dollars.

The Kuwaitis were provoking the Iraqis by using horizontal drilling to suck oil out from under the disputed border with Iraq. Iraq had no access to the technology, because the Americans were the only ones that had the equipment and knowhow to do this, so it could not suck oil out from under the border to reciprocate. 

The US sent a female ambassador to Iraq. This would have been logical in the case of Netherlands or Finland, but to Saddam it was a sign of weakness.  When Iraq complained to the US about this underground theft of oil, Glespie was directed to say, :"The US does not take a position on border dispites between Middle Eastern nations."  Saddam took this to mean, "You are free to take whatever punitive and military means you wish, and we will do nothing." The ambassador, April Glespie, retired and *poof!* vanished and not a word has been heard from her since.

As a result, the Kuwaiti Emir had to spend most of his fortune to reconquer his country. He has not mentioned selling oil in Euros since then.
As he no longer fusses about how the US is forcing him to keep his money in US banks.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2016, 10:43:25 PM »
There are many facts and valid points here.
It is a better explanation than any I have read.

It is also apparent to me that Olebush deliberately provoked Saddam into invading Kuwait.
 
I don't see any reason to think this.
Quote
The Kuwaitis were threatening to move their vast fortune in US banls into British and European banks.
They also were talking seriously of (gasp!) accepting payment for their oil in Euros, not dollars.
 
  Hahaha! Not a threat! 
Quote

The Kuwaitis were provoking the Iraqis by using horizontal drilling to suck oil out from under the disputed border with Iraq. 
We know this because Saddam made this accusation , and Saddam never lied in his life. 
Quote
Iraq had no access to the technology, because the Americans were the only ones that had the equipment and knowhow to do this, so it could not suck oil out from under the border to reciprocate.   
Is this the one secret we have the ability to keep?
Quote


The US sent a female ambassador to Iraq. This would have been logical in the case of Netherlands or Finland, but to Saddam it was a sign of weakness.  When Iraq complained to the US about this underground theft of oil, Glespie was directed to say, :"The US does not take a position on border dispites between Middle Eastern nations."  Saddam took this to mean, "You are free to take whatever punitive and military means you wish, and we will do nothing." The ambassador, April Glespie, retired and *poof!* vanished and not a word has been heard from her since.

As a result, the Kuwaiti Emir had to spend most of his fortune to reconquer his country. He has not mentioned selling oil in Euros since then.
As he no longer fusses about how the US is forcing him to keep his money in US banks.

Not a credible story, and if it were , it only would be telling Saddam we would not interfere in the wrong he wanted to do, perhaps April Glaspie had opinions much like yours.
If you were there would you have told Saddam that Kuwait was going to be protected to the extent of almost destroying the army of Iraq?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie
Quote
Subsequently, Glaspie was posted to the U.S. Mission to the United Nations in New York City. She was later posted to South Africa as Consul general in Cape Town. She held this post until her retirement in 2002.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2016, 11:29:03 PM »
Horizontal drilling requires equipment that only was available from suppliers loyal to the US government.
It was not a state secret, it was a matter of getting the equipment and using it properly. Kuwait was allowed to buy it, Iraq was not.

I know this because the sales of the horizontal drilling =equipment and the contracting of the drilling companies were not secret at all.

Why have we not heard one peep from April Glespie?  You must not have read the sources that I did.
Olebush was the Director of the CIA. The CIA is noted for being closely connected to the oil industry and for pulling dirty tricks. This was one of many.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2016, 11:37:10 PM »
So Saddam had proof?

No I have not seen that.

What is the range of horizontal drilling?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2016, 11:43:07 PM »
The proof is nor hard to get. The wells are still in place.
The Emir's threats to take his money out of US banks are a matter of record.
So were his plans to sell oil for Euros
It was in Newsweek, it was reported in the Economist.

I have read that they can drill at least two miles.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2016, 11:50:33 PM »
Two miles sideways?

This does not seem like a serious threat to Iraq's economy.

Certainly less than a war in which you loose an army.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2016, 11:54:46 PM »
Saddam understood from what Glespie said that the US would do nothing if Iraq invaded Kuwait. He was aware of the public pronouncements of the Emir of Kuwait and assumed that the US would be happy for Iraq to teach him a lesson.

Playing one enemy off against another is something the CIA has been doing for a long time.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2016, 12:04:53 AM »
 No.

This is just an ambassador who thinks like an XO.

If you were the Ambassador there  what would you have told him?

Aside from that , you find it credible that Saddam Hussein was asking the USA for permission to invade Kuwait?

Did we approve his invasion of Iran?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2016, 12:13:38 AM »
Glespie was ambassador for only a sort time, and she relayed the message that Olebush told her to relay. I think that Olebush would have been happy if Saddam had perhaps fired some shots at the drilling rigs that were stealing his oil. I don't that Olebush expected a fll scale invasion of Kuwait.

Kuwait was a part of the same Ottoman province as the rest of Iraq for a long time. The Brits picked an emir and put him on the throne and separated Kuwait from Iraq in the 1920's, so they could get the oil easily without having to deal with a government in Baghdad, that was unstable and had rebelled against them.  To Saddam, Kuwait was as Iraqi as Texas is American. The US diplomats knew this.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2016, 12:30:51 AM »
  You find it credible that George Bush 41, knew not only that Saddam Hussein wanted to invade Kuwait , but also that he would ask American permission.

     This credits not only this man , but the whole governmental organization with competence bordering on clairvoyance.

  So knowing this , he sends a message via ambassador, which causes Saddam Hussein to attack as he would have not otherwise?

Until we develop ESP, this sort of scenario is uncredible.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2016, 10:08:30 AM »
Saddam did not ask for American permission. he simply sent out a feeler.
Had Olebush sent the message that any armed aggression on Kuwait would be met with armed opposition, it is unlikely that he would have invaded.

Note the statement that he sent "The United States does not take a position on  border disputes of Middle Eastern nations".

The US has armed Israeli to the teeth to take a position on its borders.

This is an obviously untrue statement when compared with reality.   Eventually, the truth will come out, but not soon.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2016, 11:09:57 AM »
  So Saddam was a wise fool who asked the American opinion(not permission) and based his decision on an answer only a foolish fool would have believed?

     I am still incredulous at this idea.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2016, 03:13:05 PM »
Saddam had a very different view of reality than Olebush. Invading Kuwait obviously made perfect sense to him, or he would not have done it.
Again, Kuwait has been viewed as an Iraqi province stolen by the British in the 1930's. Stealing it back made sense to not only Saddam but many Iraqis. The Emir of Kuwait was a thorn in Iraq's side for decades. Kuwait blocked Iraq's free access to the Gulf and stole its oil clients as well.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: At least it is not trite.
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2016, 03:43:39 PM »
  So we agree that Saddam is the responsible party in the invasion of Kuwait.

   To claim he was entrapped by clever weasel words and a mastermind American president is incredible.