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Plane

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I phone
« on: February 27, 2016, 11:51:32 PM »
https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+6s+Teardown/48170

I don't want Apple to be required to install backdoors on I-phones.

But , not because I think the FBI should never have access.

More like the fifth amendment sort of idea, the company should not be required to make its own flaws in its products, if this is the case , a company based in a country more permissive of high quality encryption will outcompete.

So how tough is it to open this memory without triggering a wipe?

If the CPU is on a different chip than the RAM then I think it should be possible to copy the RAM into another drive on another machine bypassing all of the encryption protection.
It would still be encrypted , but the feature that wipes the memory when the password is put in wrong would be separated and perhaps replaced by a cpu that would allow a lot of trying at password guessing. 
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: I phone
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 01:24:21 PM »
It would still be encrypted , but the feature that wipes the memory when the password is put in wrong would be separated and perhaps replaced by a cpu that would allow a lot of trying at password guessing. 

If you do this, then the device will be cracked. All that is needed is a program tat enters every possible password until the correct one is found.

The issue here is whether Apple can be forced to write a program to crack their own device.

Every indication is that the San Bernardino terrorists did this entirely on their own with their own resources  or that or their neighbor who backed out and even reported them.
T\

What I think the FBI wants out of this demand is that Apple give them exclusive privileges to  crack Apple devices, and I do not think that this will actually be possible.

Apple is selling SECURITY with their i Phone. If Apple makes an exception to anyone,  then they can no longer really sell this.

It is like a tubeless tire. It is sold with the understanding that it hold air. You cannot poke a hole in it for specific air without making the air holding ability impossible.

It is one thing for the FBI to require data. It is another for them to demand that Apple write a program to obtain data.

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sirs

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Re: I phone
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 01:33:24 PM »
I've spoken to several IT folks, and its pretty much unanimous.....Apple is doing the right thing here, and what the Government is demanding is wrong.  They may claim its "only to hack this phone", but given the laundry list of information that Snowden provided us, with the levels the Government and NSA will go to keep tabs on ordinary citizens, this effort to force Apple to provide them a program that could literally be used to bypass all i-phone security features is beyond "national security" needs.  The FBI and Fed might say they'd only use the program for this phone and then "discard" the program, but who would believe that?

Perhaps if Apple was provided sole access to the phone, allowed to do their own counter programming, and whatever they find, then hand over to the FBI, that might be acceptable.  But I doubt the Federal Government would be convinced they had been given everything, and would again demand full access with their own techs
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: I phone
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 01:42:12 PM »
I don't see this as a matter of right or wrong. It is a matter of access and whether absolute secrecy can be sold as a product.

I don't think the data they could obtain would be all that useful to preventing similar attacks.

The FBI wants exclusive rights to obtain data, which would not be likely to remain exclusive.

Apple wants the ability to make data 100% secure. I don't think that this is likely to stay possible, either.

Let the courts battle this out.
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sirs

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Re: I phone
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2016, 03:03:12 PM »
The "right or wrong" is pretty self evident.  Apple is either in the right for refusing to adhere to a court order, or they're wrong.  Based on the knowledge I've read and the IT folks I've spoken to, Apple is in the right for refusing to adhere to a court order, and your beloved Federal Government is in the wrong for trying to make Apple come up with a program that would then allow them to bypass all present modern day i-phones
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: I phone
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2016, 03:11:20 PM »
This will be judged as legal or illegal, but I fail to see it as any sort of moral issue.

It will probably result in Apple  or someone designing a phone that no one can  crack with any tools.
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sirs

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Re: I phone
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2016, 04:06:33 PM »
What part of court order are you not understanding?   That makes it legal.   If Apple continues to defy the court order makes their actions technically illegal, but they're still in the right.

And when the next unhackable phone is made, will only remain that way until the next terrorist attack, at which time the Government will demand a new program to get around the phone's security
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: I phone
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2016, 06:15:13 PM »
They are challenging a court order. So some higher court will decide this.
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sirs

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Re: I phone
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2016, 06:30:25 PM »
It's called an appeal of an already legal order
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: I phone
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2016, 07:51:09 PM »
Whatever it is called, it will go to a higher court, because the FBI is not just demanding data, it is demanding that Apple write a program to hack data.

That is asking for active rather than passive information and is almost certainly enough of a difference that this will be booted to a higher court.

In this specific case, I doubt that there is much useful data on the phone in question, as it is obvious from a New Yorker article I read that other than a borrowed pistol, the couple financed and planned the attack themselves. I am sure that Al Qaeda and Isis were happy to hear about it, though.

The probable result is a new design for a phone in which NO ONE can hack the data.

If an attempt to get the data without the password is made, at some point the phone erases everything and to totally bricked. This would mean Apple could sell another phone, which I am sure they would not mind.
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sirs

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Re: I phone
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2016, 08:17:25 PM »
I never said they were "demanding data".  They're demanding that Apple write a program that would bypass their own phone's security protocols, so that they can then access the data.  And Apple is in the right for refusing to comply.  The court may uphold the original order, and make Apple's actions "illegal", but not wrong for doing so

And the end result won't be an unhackable phone, since its already being demonstrated, the Fed can simply compel Apple or whoever, to simply write a new program, that gets around the phone's privacy functions......for "national security" purposes of course
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: I phone
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 09:36:38 AM »
Apple can make a phone that is unhackable. Or they can make one that is almost unhackable, proclaim it is unhackable and let the Feds try to hack it.
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sirs

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Re: I phone
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 11:23:44 AM »
They did already, which is why the Fed 8s now trying to use the courts to force Apple to come up with a program to hack their own phone
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: I phone
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 11:53:34 AM »
But this one can be hacked, apparently. Apple can simply claim that their guys tried to hack it and failed. The government cannot demand that anyone do something that is impossible. To prove it is possible, the Feds would have to hack it themselves.

But they could make a program that was totally unhackable, and that is probably what they will do.

I do not have an iPhone, I don't see this as any sort of threat to me, either way.
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sirs

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Re: I phone
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 12:02:49 PM »
If it could, the FBI wouldn't be trying to force Apple to come up with a program to bypass the built in security.  Nor is this about you
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