Abortion patients

[Amianthus]

so until pro-lifer expanded beyond abstinence only policy .
teaching responsibility is a no go

There are lots of pro-lifers who advocate birth control.

The defining issue for pro-lifers is not birth control, it's abortion used as birth control.

[sirs]

Here's a thought, we could try not treating the poor like they are children in need of a lesson from a holier-than-thou, patronistic, talking down, ass.  Because you know it all comes down to how horrible taxpayers have it and how the Government isn't teaching people the right things.  much more the right thing to do

Yea, living far beyond one's means and bringing children into that enviroment, is so much more the right thing to do       Screw Responsibility

[sirs]

so until pro-lifer expanded beyond abstinence only policy .  teaching responsibility is a no go

There are lots of pro-lifers who advocate birth control.  The defining issue for pro-lifers is not birth control, it's abortion used as birth control.[/color]

BINGO !!

[_JS]

Yea, living far beyond one's means and bringing children into that enviroment, is so much more the right thing to do       Screw Responsibility

How do you know they are living beyond their means? Lanya only said that they are poor. Last I checked the poor are allowed to reproduce Sir Keith.

What makes you think that they are a mass of irresponsible, uneducated, amoral, individuals?

The problem is that you and others support birth control at all. And I take exception to yours and Ami's suggestion that birth control is not a defining issue in being pro-life.

[kimba1]

true alot of pro-lifer are for birth-control,but the core goal is abstinence -only
getting rid abortion has never been the promary goal.
note how pro-life groups(in general) have never offered birthcontrol.
at least planned parenthood gives away free condems
which I totally believe more than half the teenage boys carry around lying they had sex.
their maybe more teen pregnancies
but i believe it`s more out of irresposiblility than more teens having sex.
these kids just don`t seem that smart to me
p.s. nowadays teens find each other less attractive.
tatoos and peircing are the new birthcontrol.

[sirs]

Yea, living far beyond one's means and bringing children into that enviroment, is so much more the right thing to do       Screw Responsibility

How do you know they are living beyond their means?

Anyone that brings their child into a world, where they are struggling just to make rent, much less buy food, is living beyond thier means by trying to bring a child into this world.  That's how I know.  

What makes you think that they are a mass of irresponsible, uneducated, amoral, individuals?

I think the ones who keep having children out of wedlock, have children from multiple sperm donars, and then decry how the government isn't helping them enough with child care are the irrepsonsible folk.  Don't EVEN try to lay claim that I'm referring to all of "the poor" as such.  

[_JS]

Apologies for being less than charitable, this hasn't exactly been a good day thus far.

OK.

I think that few Christians realise that no Christian denomination supported birth control until 1930, when the Anglican Communion accepted limited birth control at the Lambeth Conference.

The problem is that you all want people to respect the life of the unborn and take responsibility for pregnancies, yet you offer no philosophical ground for which they should do so. I see that the blame is easy to spread. The government is quickly blamed (no surprise, it is an easy amorphous target). "Liberals" (and by extension "libertarians") are quickly blamed, after all it is their devotion to individual rights that has brought this cursed view of "choice" to society. The Education system is to blame, for not teaching people how to make the correct decisions. And so on...

Yet, the truth is that once birth control was accepted, the entire philosophical and moral foundation for opposing abortion and teaching people to avoid out of wedlock pregnancies was tossed into the garbage can.

Look at what you've replaced it with. Economics? Forget making a moral decision, now you're asking two young people to make a purely economic decision while they are making out. Reckon that will have a high success rate?

"I'm sorry Lindsay, your nubile breasts don't compare to this month's projected revenue over income statement."

By accepting birth control, people have accepted a society where the most vulnerable (the young) were given a license to have physical relationships indiscriminately. Men no longer viewed women in a motherly, nurturing manner - but instead as physical objects for selfish enjoyment.

[kimba1]

Men no longer viewed women in a motherly, nurturing manner

uhm..... yeah

no longer

[_JS]

Men no longer viewed women in a motherly, nurturing manner

uhm..... yeah

no longer

I can reword it so that it says, "the problem of objectifying women worsened."

The truth is still the truth Kimba. Once the Pandora's Box was opened, it was too late.

[kimba1]

oh objectifying women.
not sure thats actually true.

women nowadays can actually say no
and men actually backoff .

I say this because I come from a extremely traditional family and which ever girl I`m going out with is busy doing something else.
I get harrased by my family and friends say I should put her in her place.
So I understand the progress women have gotten in america.

remember the expression don`t take no for an answer
it`s been awhile since I heard that one

[sirs]

With all due respect Js, the notion of having to disregard morality since the introduction and usage of Birth Control is lame at its minimum, and perhaps even very Un-Christian-like at its worst.   Responsibility is preached thru-out the Bible, and is why we were allowed to chose the path we all take, that of folloing in Christ's teachings......or not.  We then reap the ramifications of those choices.....You go to Heaven, or you don't.  God didn't make up a welfare wing for those that chose to ignore his teachings, and do whatever it is they want, when they want, then expect God to help bail them out with salvation & eternal life, just because he's a compassionate and loving God. 

No one's telling anyone they can't do what they want, when they want, or with who they want.  Everyone is free to make their own decisions.  Just don't expect open arms of compassion, and worse, corercion by way of legal intervention, to support & embrace bad decisions, and their repercussions, such as bringing children into this world, when one is not prepared to do so

[BT]

I can reword it so that it says, "the problem of objectifying women worsened."

Interesting point you make.

[_JS]

With all due respect Js, the notion of having to disregard morality since the introduction and usage of Birth Control is lame at its minimum, and perhaps even very Un-Christian-like at its worst.   Responsibility is preached thru-out the Bible, and is why we were allowed to chose the path we all take, that of folloing in Christ's teachings......or not.  We then reap the ramifications of those choices.....You go to Heaven, or you don't.  God didn't make up a welfare wing for those that chose to ignore his teachings, and do whatever it is they want, when they want, then expect God to help bail them out with salvation & eternal life, just because he's a compassionate and loving God.

You clearly did not understand the point. It is not about individual choices.

The problem is that Churches, such as your own, accepted birth control. Then people accepted birth control as a perfectly acceptable part of modern life. It was then that the foundation of any pro-life stance was destroyed. This has nothing to do with "welfare wings" and God's salvation. I'm not even sure where you've gotten that.

This has to do with the fundamental relationship between men and women. With the full acceptance of birth control, by those such as yourself and the Protestant churches, the philosophical relationship between men and women changed. Procreation was no longer an important part of having a physical relationship.

So you accept birth control, but then turn around and give people some rhetoric about making the economically correct choice? I'm going to guess that you were young and in love once Sirs, would you have listened to such an ivory tower argument?

No one's telling anyone they can't do what they want, when they want, or with who they want.  Everyone is free to make their own decisions.  Just don't expect open arms of compassion, and worse, corercion by way of legal intervention, to support & embrace bad decisions, and their repercussions, such as bringing children into this world, when one is not prepared to do so

This paragraph has nothing to do with anything.

The point is this. Supporting birth control and then decrying abortion, is akin to Brigham Young giving a lecture on monogamy.

[Amianthus]

true alot of pro-lifer are for birth-control,but the core goal is abstinence -only
getting rid abortion has never been the promary goal.

I beg to differ. And I'm sure I know more pro-lifers than you do.

As I said, the core issue for the pro-life crowd is elimination of abortion as birth control.

[Plane]

Here's a thought.....teach responsibility, teach the meaning of when its both psychologically & economically viable to bring a child into this world.  But no, apparently we're to teach to hell with it all, let us do what we want, when we want, and damn the consequences, because, hey, we'll get the taxpayers to take care of our gross lack of judgmement and control      

Here's a thought, we could try not treating the poor like they are children in need of a lesson from a holier-than-thou, patronistic, talking down, ass.

Because you know it all comes down to how horrible taxpayers have it and how the Government isn't teaching people the right things.

 

No
We are discussing murder , not tax rates.