Author Topic: Obama's Plan To Disarm America  (Read 4860 times)

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Christians4LessGvt

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Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« on: March 02, 2008, 03:49:09 PM »

Barack Hussein Obama's Plan To Disarm America

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl32Y7wDVDs

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Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2008, 04:49:23 PM »
Kinda fraudulently misleading title, isn't it?  He expressed no intention to disarm America.  His proposals were limited to arms reduction, defence spending reductions, mutual dismantling of ICBMs pursuant to treaty to be negotiated, etc.  NOT A WORD about dismantling conventional forces or general disarmament.

The_Professor

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2008, 05:51:14 PM »
"defence spending reductions"

aka increased unemployment.
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fatman

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2008, 06:21:29 PM »
"defence spending reductions"

aka increased unemployment.


So retrain them in another field.  Joe and Jane Taxpayer shouldn't have to keep footing a bill for the idiocy that the government needs to employ people.  If we're going to go that route, I'd rather have the CCC back, maybe we could reduce the backlog of work that needs done in the national park/national forest system.  The government isn't mandated to provide jobs for people, especially in defense/armaments.  This is exactly what Eisenhower warned about, unwarranted influence.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2008, 06:59:50 PM »
What this country needs is bridges and highways, not humongously expensive weapons to protect us from nonexistent enemies.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2008, 07:03:09 PM »
I beg to differ Fat, and as you and I obviously aren't quite on the same page as it relates to defense spending, and the primary respoinsibility of the Fed vs the good intentions of what the Fed should be doing (largely a right vs left phenomnon), we're gonna have words about this.  When you compare the defense budget now to back in WWII, to the domestic spending programs now, vs back in wwII, it's quite staggering the amount of money % wise we no longer apply to defense, all the while tending to ignore that defense is one of the PRIMARY Federal reasons for being.

And obviously we tend to disagree to the extent of how much, under Reagan, defense spending went back up (from the egregiously low levels imparted by Carter), which helped in turn bring about an end to the Cold war.

I'm not advocating increasing the defense budget (though as I've said, being it's one of THE primary responsibilities of the Fed, I wouldn't have a problem with it), I am gonna be acutely critical of any attempts to Carter-ize it, making us significantly weaker, and as Professor accurately referenced as well, put many out of a job, that would have to require re-training somewhere else, perhaps not even able to do so within the military.

BAD idea, in every way shape or form, if that's Omaba's plan
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Michael Tee

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2008, 07:09:10 PM »
<<And obviously we tend to disagree to the extent of how much, under Reagan, defense spending went back up (from the egregiously low levels imparted by Carter), which helped in turn bring about an end to the Cold war.>>

And wasn't it miraculous how, almost as soon as the Cold War ended, NEW enemies appeared on the horizon so that the government could keep on feeding the military-industrial establishment?

The Red Menace.  Islamofascism.  Lucky break for somebody, I guess.

sirs

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2008, 07:17:22 PM »
Lucky for the left I guess......they had a new means of trying to defend the indefensible
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Religious Dick

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2008, 09:46:47 PM »
"defence spending reductions"

aka increased unemployment.

Well, it's about time the political right got around to acknowledging what the armed forces primary "mission" has been since about 1945 - a welfare program for rednecks!

Service to the country, eh? One thing's for sure - the taxpayer has sure been getting "serviced" to beat the band!
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fatman

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2008, 11:44:56 PM »
I beg to differ Fat, and as you and I obviously aren't quite on the same page as it relates to defense spending, and the primary respoinsibility of the Fed vs the good intentions of what the Fed should be doing (largely a right vs left phenomnon), we're gonna have words about this.  When you compare the defense budget now to back in WWII, to the domestic spending programs now, vs back in wwII, it's quite staggering the amount of money % wise we no longer apply to defense, all the while tending to ignore that defense is one of the PRIMARY Federal reasons for being.

And obviously we tend to disagree to the extent of how much, under Reagan, defense spending went back up (from the egregiously low levels imparted by Carter), which helped in turn bring about an end to the Cold war.

I'm not advocating increasing the defense budget (though as I've said, being it's one of THE primary responsibilities of the Fed, I wouldn't have a problem with it), I am gonna be acutely critical of any attempts to Carter-ize it, making us significantly weaker, and as Professor accurately referenced as well, put many out of a job, that would have to require re-training somewhere else, perhaps not even able to do so within the military.

BAD idea, in every way shape or form, if that's Omaba's plan


I acknowledge your point sirs, and our disagreement.  I'm willing to bet an apology that the defense budget of the last 20 years is higher than it was (adjusted for inflation of course) in 1937 (pre WWII) or 1955 (post WWII, beginning of the Cold War).  I acknowledge the need for defense, and agree with sensible appropriations for the defense budget.  Obviously in WWII, our defense appropriation occupied a large percentage of the GDP, at a time where factories were converted to make armaments and troop supplies, beating our ploughshares into swords if you will.  I don't dispute that, WWII was probably the time that we allocated the most money to defense.  (I'm saying probably because at this point it's nearing my bedtime and I'm feeling it, and being lazy).

What I have a problem with is a situation like the B-52 Bomber, where a part of that plane is made in every state?  Why is there a part made in every state?  So that if someone ever tries to take it out of production, there will be a hue and cry about lost jobs.  That's how we end up with nightmares like the Osprey helicopter and these wonderful new Coast Guard Cutters that are complete pieces of crap.  This is bad enough, but now the Pentagon is outsourcing?The $40 billion contract for new Air Force tankers didn't go to Boeing, but Northrup Grumman.  All the pieces of these tankers will be made in Toulouse, France.  Final assembly will take place here in the U.S.  Doesn't this seem kind of dumb?  If France gets mad at the US for some reason (I know, hard to imagine France mad at a country that gave us "Freedom Fries"), is it inconceivable that we'll hear "Ooops, sorry guys, we're having a supply shortage/labor trouble at the moment, we'll get back to you"?

What I took issue with was the Professor's implication that by cutting defense appropriations, we're increasing unemployment, and that unemployment = bad, more than defense spending. It is not one of the primary purposes of the Fed to provide employment for the citizens, no matter the cost.  If I misread the Professor's post and assumed something that wasn't there, I apologize in advance.  I make plenty of mistakes here and I'm not unaware of that fact.  But if what I thought he said is correct, then I stand by my statement.

The National Forest/National Park system are also a primary purpose of the Fed, as are critical infrastructure such as roads, bridges, and ports.  All of these systems benefit the Fed in some form, whether it's resource management, trade income, or defense mobility.  I don't agree that these systems are less important than defense, though their importance differs from that of the defense mission.  Would putting laid off defense workers to work building/repairing roads/bridges through a retraining program be a bad thing?  Not in my mind.  They all work for the Fed.

Plane

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2008, 04:47:29 PM »
B-52s are thirty , if they are the latest model.

The F-15 is starting to find pilots younger than its airframe.

Since 1989 defense spending has declined by 30% then risen again about 5%.

Hyperbole undergoes inflation along with everything elese.

_JS

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2008, 05:21:26 PM »
One of the issues is that the current military has bought into the great Air Force lie. It is an expensive lie that creates a need for massive amounts of air power, research, expensive armaments, drone aircraft, and other such crap that Donald Rumsfeld absolutely adored. It is the theory that wars are won from long distances with nearly no human interaction with the enemy.

It is the reason we are not winning in Iraq. While Navy and Air Force budgets skyrocket, the US Army was dismantled and replaced with "a small elite force." That had nothing to do with Jimmy Carter, no matter how many times Sirs tries to rewrite history. It was none other than Richard "Dick" Cheney who set the military on this course and Donald Rumsfeld who relished its completion. It is the reason there are National Guardsmen and Army Reservists serving numerous 15-month tours in Iraq or Afghanistan.

The truth is, you can punish and decimate a poor third world military like Saddam's with air power and then mop it up quickly with your small, elite army. But you cannot occupy hostile territory with small numbers of soldiers, riding in poorly defended vehicles and using gun trucks to defend convoys. It is a joke. I mean that with all the consequences that sentence carries. There are good, bad, and mediocre soldiers in Iraq, but none of them deserve the absolutely awful situation in which they were placed, partly because of the Air Force lie which all these politicians bought into like drops of dew from heaven.

While Toby Keith makes a fortune playing on faux-patriotism and heartstrings of families of vets, the real problem is structural. You don't own the ground until you have soldiers standing there - it doesn't matter how many unmanned drones you fly over. And yes, the National Guard and Army Reserve are made to be deployed on occasion, but they aren't made to fight protracted guerilla wars. In Iraq we have MP's in gun trucks running off and leaving their convoys when they start to get attacked. Add to this the absolute morale buster of KBR and other contracters who lure away military folks with six-figure paychecks and you've created a formula for losing a war long before the first shots of the insurgency were even fired.
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Amianthus

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2008, 05:37:36 PM »
That had nothing to do with Jimmy Carter, no matter how many times Sirs tries to rewrite history.

It was under Clinton that that policy was enacted.
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fatman

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2008, 10:23:17 PM »
Since 1989 defense spending has declined by 30% then risen again about 5%.

Thanks for that clarification plane, I was tired last night and was too lazy to dig that up.

_JS

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Re: Obama's Plan To Disarm America
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2008, 01:36:54 PM »
That had nothing to do with Jimmy Carter, no matter how many times Sirs tries to rewrite history.

It was under Clinton that that policy was enacted.

Everything I've read indicates that it began under the first President Bush, but certainly was embraced by Clinton, and no one has embraced it more than the current President Bush.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.