California judge says no to homeschooling

[Universe Prince]

And if the President and Congress are so very concerned with children meeting educational standards, then why are private and home schools exempt?
Do they not also teach children?
Are some children more equal than others?
Is it presumed that private and home schools are "good" and public schools are "bad"?

What silly questions. Tell me, Lanya, do home schools get funding from the federal government? Are private schools in your state run by your state's department of education?

Are some children more equal than others? Don't ask us. Ask the people who fight against school competition, condemning many children to poor schools.

[Lanya]

Schools are accredited by the state, aren't they? Even if they get no federal funding. At least that's what I've always understood.
"Fighting against school choice" ?  I wasn't doing that. 
If public school students have to meet these criteria (the standardized testing) then so should all schools. Otherwise there would be a lot of underperforming schools, and we can't have that. Children's education is too important.
Isn't it?

[Amianthus]

Schools are accredited by the state, aren't they? Even if they get no federal funding. At least that's what I've always understood.

It's not required.

[Universe Prince]

Schools are accredited by the state, aren't they?

Not generally private schools, so far as I know.

"Fighting against school choice" ?  I wasn't doing that.

I didn't say you were.

If public school students have to meet these criteria (the standardized testing) then so should all schools. Otherwise there would be a lot of underperforming schools, and we can't have that. Children's education is too important.
Isn't it?

What you're missing here is that private schools, usually while spending far less per student than public schools, generally do a much better job of education than public schools.

"Children's education is too important." This is why I support school competition. How about you?

[Cynthia]

Competition is fine. The playing field is not conducive to a fair game.

The Public Schools are rushing like mad chilis to make sure all children can read at the same level by a particular date. There's nothing wrong with that.

Sure, Ok, why not set a program in gear that gives kids MORE. I see nothing wrong with helping a child learn to read, compute and more. (although,we were doing just fine in that dept pre NCLB btw) But, I'll continue with the description of the playing field.

While they (we) are rushing to make that grade lest we suffer sanctions, we have also had to adopt new  reading and math programs. Again, nothing wrong with that. But, we are teaching only reading and math for the most part.....
the kids in the Public school system are actually getting "less" than they were previously.

Now, on the other side of that playing field you see private schools,home schools, charter schools with no restrictions, no rushing to make sure kids read all at the same time, at the same level, etc. Basically, they have a get out of jail free card. They don't even have to GO TO JAIL.

Ok, so how is this a fair competitive field? HOw?

One school teaches less...the other school teachers much more.

I am saying that we need to level the playing field, an make it so that the children who are being educated in the public sector, get more! Of course, parents are going to send their kids to "other" institutions. Who wouldn't.

Ami, I know you want to hear me say that the NCLB act does not line out in detail THE EXACT PUNITIVE ACTIONS.....the EXACT METHOD FOR IMPROVEMENT ETC...of course they have sent that pigeon messanger to the individual states. So what?

That isn't the issue. The issue is that in writing the act mandates that all children will read by the a particular year. All well and fine. But, it also stipulates that states must find a way to "punish"...sanctions, etc.. Who the hell cares if the act itself doesn't state those punitive actions...My god, man, it's OUT THERE...it's on the books.....the states must find a way or the states hit the highway....Did you read the post I sent the other day?
Rewards vs Sanctions...oh and the private schools aren't touched in the same way.

My point is;

Provide time for programs that are MANDATED to work. And according to their own research, these program do not magically work within one year's time. It takes at least 5 years (K-5).

But, the way the law is set up, the schools must meet AYP NOW. THe sanctions, the probationary actions, the restrictive #1 and #2 ...they are slapped on us NOW. I say that is not right.

I also believe we should be able in that  time, find a way to provide kids the same amount of education (science, art, music) as offered by private schools.

This issue keeps coming up....COMPETITIVE for or against.

It seems that you don't hear the issue that I have been trying to argue here. But you and Sirs and others keep ranting your rage about this one element. I am NOT AGAINST competition. I aAM AGAINST an unfair playing field. I AM AGAINST what is happening in the school AND to our kids as a consequence.

Ok, I thought I would not come back to this issue, because you guys keep looping the same crap, and I have a nice two week vacation here. So, I will get back to it now.
I work in a year round school, and our "breaks" come throughout the year----we have a shorter summer.

Later,
Cynthia

[Universe Prince]

Competition is fine. The playing field is not conducive to a fair game.

That depends on what one considers a fair game.

Now, on the other side of that playing field you see private schools,home schools, charter schools with no restrictions, no rushing to make sure kids read all at the same time, at the same level, etc. Basically, they have a get out of jail free card. They don't even have to GO TO JAIL.

Ok, so how is this a fair competitive field? HOw?

Exactly. We need less regulation and more competition. This is what I've been saying for some time now. I'm glad to see you're coming around.

[Amianthus]

Provide time for programs that are MANDATED to work. And according to their own research, these program do not magically work within one year's time. It takes at least 5 years (K-5).

But, the way the law is set up, the schools must meet AYP NOW. THe sanctions, the probationary actions, the restrictive #1 and #2 ...they are slapped on us NOW. I say that is not right.

The act was signed into law in 2001. It mandates full compliance in 2014. By my math (and I know it's a bit old-fashioned) I figure that gives 13 years - a tad bit more than 5 years. Your results might vary, I haven't done the "new math" yet.

And AYP is a PROGRESS goal - that's what the "P" stands for. You have to achieve a certain amount of PROGRESS each year, not 100% compliance. In other words, if your progress goal for reading is 5% each year, and last year you had 40% reading at grade level (defined by the state, incidentally) this year you should have 45% reading at grade level. And nothing stops the state of New Mexico from deciding that their students are dumber than those in, say, New York and setting an appropriately lower reading goal.

And those sanctions you're worried about? If you miss your AYP, you get MORE MONEY, which should be targeted at meeting your AYP next year. Only schools that miss their AYP three consecutive years lose money, and then it's only in the administrative budget, because the state is required to take over administration.

Now, if I were an ADMINISTRATOR, I would be worried.

[Cynthia]

UP,

If you were A CHILD in this system, YOU would be crushed....not worried. You are not a child in the system. You are a political message board member who THINKS he knows what is best.
Ok. i'll give you that for now.

If you were in the classroom, what would YOU DO? Do you know what it is like to be on the front lines of a classroom setting? Do you?
Take moment before you answer that if you will, please. Don't jump to a rush to assume anything.
Ok, you are a teacher in a classroom. You have been trained, with a Master's Degree in education. You have affected many lives in the past. You have studied all there is to study in terms of how a child learns.

You have applied all that you know....AND you have done so in a setting where there are 24 kids in one room, kids with issues, kids with problems that you couldn't even begin to imagine. Ok...step back....reflect. . . Don't rush yet.
You have learned all there is to learn about how a child learns....How to best teach a child...years of study...years of work....years of experience and worthwhile results.


You respond in a moments notice to a thread of posts on a message board on the DHS debategate...suddenly YOU KNOW best. Suddenly, SIRS knows best. hmmm, Ok....why?
Because you believe to be truth that the facts play out....not good enough in terms of test scores. A ha. . . THEREFORE all schools in the entire system of the USAmerican schools is a failure...and I am going to post that "I would be worried"?

This "argument"...This "discussion" is fine ON PAPER. This rhetoric is fine as political debates play themselves out.

I speak from experience and knowledge. I will never give that up.

I think it's time that we all listen to the history books not only in terms of what goes on in education, but what the world has experienced in terms of WAR,  ECONOMIC GROWTH, ECONOMIC FAILURES ETC ETC ...
etc.

ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.
Now, I see. Now, I see the truth that is the failure in the thread of America.

This message board has brought forth a lot more than a simple debate, for me.

I am suddenly  aware that there is so much more to this nation than we SPELL OUT.

There is so much more to the dynamics and the depth of what happens in this world of ours.

To stand on ONE platform and to make JUDGEMENTS based on a single "platform" politically is dangerous, to say the least.

Individual lives are at stake here. A simple law, act, or position to make things better is


BULLSHIT.

I will always remember this discussion for the fact that we haven't learned anything...not really...unless we take time, understand the facts that are not published, and have patience to see that we are not rushing to action in order to be reactive, not proactive.


This administration has been simply reaction...not proaction.


Airlines, Airports, safety measures are a crock...if we don't all pull in and see to it that the details are well managed.
Terror is going to show its ugly head when we aren't looking...It has, and always will.

No different in the life of a child.

Support.
Support.
Stop resting on the bench that is political rhetoric that makes the individual win.
America----we have to win mentality?
Wrong. Too easy.

[Lanya]

What I'm getting from some posts here is that punitive measures should be exacted upon schools, school children, and school teachers and principals in part because the schools are funded by tax dollars.

Do I have this right, or did I take away the wrong impression?

[BT]

What you should be taking away from this discussion is the overwhelming sense that the failure to educate the youth of america will no longer be tolerated, mitigated or excused.


That a third grader should be able to read at third grade level at the end of the third grade school year.

Is that really too much to ask?

[Universe Prince]

UP,

If you were A CHILD in this system, YOU would be crushed....not worried.

Possibly. That hardly makes anything I said incorrect.

You are not a child in the system. You are a political message board member who THINKS he knows what is best.
Ok. i'll give you that for now.

I'm a political message board member who sees serious problems in education in the U.S. Is that a problem? Am I not supposed to be concerned because I'm not a child or not a teacher? I'm an adult,, and I see a problem, and I see reasonable proposals of and efforts at solutions being fought against because they do not enhance the status quo operation of the system. So I should not speak up on this matter because I'm not you?

If you were in the classroom, what would YOU DO? Do you know what it is like to be on the front lines of a classroom setting? Do you?
Take moment before you answer that if you will, please. Don't jump to a rush to assume anything.
Ok, you are a teacher in a classroom. You have been trained, with a Master's Degree in education. You have affected many lives in the past. You have studied all there is to study in terms of how a child learns.

You have applied all that you know....AND you have done so in a setting where there are 24 kids in one room, kids with issues, kids with problems that you couldn't even begin to imagine. Ok...step back....reflect. . . Don't rush yet.
You have learned all there is to learn about how a child learns....How to best teach a child...years of study...years of work....years of experience and worthwhile results.

Well, here's part of the problem: the assumption that someone with a master's degree in education knows all there is know about how a child learns and/or all there is to know about teaching children.

You respond in a moments notice to a thread of posts on a message board on the DHS debategate...suddenly YOU KNOW best. Suddenly, SIRS knows best. hmmm, Ok....why?

I cannot speak for Sirs, but I don't believe I claimed to know best. I gave my opinion and supported it.

Because you believe to be truth that the facts play out....not good enough in terms of test scores. A ha. . . THEREFORE all schools in the entire system of the USAmerican schools is a failure...

I never said that.

and I am going to post that "I would be worried"?

Flattered as I am that you seem to have confused me with Amianthus, that was not my comment.

I speak from experience and knowledge. I will never give that up.

No one is asking you to do so.

I think it's time that we all listen to the history books not only in terms of what goes on in education, but what the world has experienced in terms of WAR,  ECONOMIC GROWTH, ECONOMIC FAILURES ETC ETC ...
etc.

ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.

I am fairly certain I have already agreed with you that one size does not fit all. Hence my support for school competition and homeschooling, et cetera.

Now, I see. Now, I see the truth that is the failure in the thread of America.

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Individual lives are at stake here. A simple law, act, or position to make things better is


BULLSHIT.

Oh, come on, admit it. You're libertarian, aren't you?

I will always remember this discussion for the fact that we haven't learned anything...not really...

That is only true if you let it be.

Airlines, Airports, safety measures are a crock...if we don't all pull in and see to it that the details are well managed.
Terror is going to show its ugly head when we aren't looking...It has, and always will.

No different in the life of a child.

Support.
Support.
Stop resting on the bench that is political rhetoric that makes the individual win.
America----we have to win mentality?
Wrong. Too easy.

No idea what that means either.

[Universe Prince]

We got 400 posts. We got 400 posts. What? No, I'm not gloating. I'm just saying...

[Universe Prince]

What I'm getting from some posts here is that punitive measures should be exacted upon schools, school children, and school teachers and principals in part because the schools are funded by tax dollars.

Do I have this right, or did I take away the wrong impression?

Punitive measures because they funded by tax dollars. Um, not quite. I believe the idea is to do something about the poor state of public education. If there punitive measures to be taken in that regard, they should be meted out to public schools and public school systems, rather than say, private schools or home schools. Since the government, at various levels, funds and essentially runs the public schools, then the government solutions (if such a thing could truly be said to exist) should apply to public schools. Is there something about that you find unreasonable? Perhaps you think problems that arise at, say, a government run day care facility should result in you being punished in how you rear your child at home? If there are problems that arise within, say, the police department, should the private security guards  at the bank also be punished?

[sirs]

You respond in a moments notice to a thread of posts on a message board on the DHS debategate...suddenly YOU KNOW best. Suddenly, SIRS knows best. hmmm, Ok....why?

I cannot speak for Sirs, but I don't believe I claimed to know best. I gave my opinion and supported it.

Nor have I claimed I know best either.  Though I should point out, a certain someone who happens to be a teacher sure seems to lay the foundation that she knows best......and yet what she knows sounds dangersously similar to teachers' union talking points, minus any assemblence of ideas to address the egregiously worsening education of our children outside of more money & smaller class sizes...oh, and stop picking on the teachers, where apparently requiring accountability is tantamount to declaring war on the Public Education System   

[Amianthus]

ONE freaking size in this nation of ours....DOES NOT FIT ALL.

Which is why EACH STATE comes up with it's own standards.

In addition, each state is supposed to come up with THREE standards for each grade level - advanced, proficient, and basic.

So, it seems to me that are 50 X 3 standards, or 150 standards.

But, of course, that's my "old math" talking. I'm sure someone will explain how 50 X 3 is actually "1".