Author Topic: Oooopsie  (Read 5652 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Oooopsie
« on: March 15, 2008, 12:14:04 AM »
You know....I can't help but note that if the Democrats would just stick to the rules they layed out to begin with, instead of trying to change the rules, to apparently accomodate Mrs Clinton, this wouldn't be an issue or problem
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Delegate Battles Embroil 2 States

By MICHAEL LUO and JOHN M. BRODER
Published: March 15, 2008


Democrats in Michigan and Florida struggled Friday to resolve the impasse over their disputed January primaries, coming up with a plan to hold a June primary in Michigan while remaining deadlocked in Florida.

Reflecting how tense the situation has become, influential fund-raisers for Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton have stepped up their behind-the-scenes pressure on national party leaders to resolve the matter, with some even threatening to withhold their donations to the Democratic National Committee unless it seats the delegates from the two states or holds new primaries there.

The committee penalized Michigan and Florida for holding their primaries early in violation of national party rules, barring their delegates from being seated at the Democratic convention this summer. But with the Democratic contest now a scramble for every remaining delegate, the allocation of delegates from the two states could have a substantial impact on the nomination.

Mrs. Clinton won the primaries in both states, but the contests were not sanctioned by the party, neither candidate campaigned in the states and Mr. Obama did not even put his name on the ballot in Michigan.

Pushing to seat the Florida delegates, at least one top Clinton fund-raiser, Paul Cejas, a Miami businessman who has given the Democratic National Committee $63,500 since 2003, has demanded Democratic officials return his 2007 contribution of $28,500, which they have agreed to do.

?If you?re not going to count my vote, I?m not going to give you my money,? said Mr. Cejas, who was the United States ambassador to Belgium from 1998 to 2001.

Christopher Korge, a Florida real estate developer who is another top fund-raiser for Mrs. Clinton, held an event last year in his home that brought in about $140,000 for the national party, which was set aside in a special account for the general election battle in Florida. But he told committee officials this week that if Florida?s delegate conundrum was not settled satisfactorily he would be asking for the money back.

?If we do not resolve this issue,? Mr. Korge said, ?I think it?s safe to say there will be a request for a return of $140,000.?

The anger from Clinton fund-raisers seems to emanate mostly from Florida, where the impasse appears farthest from resolution. Democratic Party officials in Michigan on Friday proposed a new primary election on June 3 to make up for the January election.

The new vote, which would be run by state elections officials but financed with money raised from private sources, is far from a sure thing. It requires approval by the divided state legislature and from the Clinton and Obama campaigns. There is also no assurance that the party can quickly raise the estimated $10 million it would cost to redo the January contest.

Meanwhile, Senator Bill Nelson of Florida, a Clinton supporter, raised the possibility of seating his state?s delegates based on the January vote ? which Mrs. Clinton won 50 percent to 33 percent ? but awarding each Florida delegate only half a vote at the August convention. That would mean that Mrs. Clinton would narrow the delegate gap with Mr. Obama by a net of 19 delegates, rather than the 38 she would have gained under the January result. She trails Mr. Obama by more than 100 delegates, according to most counts.

Mr. Nelson discussed the plan with Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton on Thursday on the Senate floor. A Nelson aide said they told him they wanted the Florida problem resolved but did not endorse his half-a-vote plan. Other Florida Democrats said the Nelson proposal was only one of many ideas floating around.

Mr. Obama has consistently rejected seating any delegates based on the January votes in Michigan or Florida, which he said were unfair because neither candidate was allowed to campaign there. In Michigan, while Mrs. Clinton?s name was on the primary ballot, many Obama supporters voted for ?uncommitted,? a line that got 40 percent of the vote to Mrs. Clinton?s 55 percent.

As for the latest Michigan proposal, aides to Mrs. Clinton signaled they were likely to go along with the plan, but the Obama campaign was more skeptical, according to people involved in the process.

?We have to do something,? said State Senator Tupac A. Hunter, a co-chairman of the Obama Michigan campaign, ?but I don?t know if this is even legal.?

A Clinton spokesman, Mo Elleithee, said of the Michigan proposal: ?Nearly 600,000 Americans participated in the Michigan primary in January, and we have a solemn obligation to ensure that their voices are heard. The best way to make that happen is to honor their votes, but if that isn?t possible there should be a new state primary that doesn?t leave taxpayers footing the bill.?

He said the Clinton campaign was waiting to hear more details.

The plan was negotiated by Senator Carl Levin, Representative Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick, Debbie Dingell, a member of the Democratic National Committee, and Ron Gettelfinger, president of the United Auto Workers. The four Democrats, who all claim neutrality in the presidential contest, have been working with state and national party officials and representatives of the two campaigns to try to find a solution to the delegate impasse.

?We agree that the Michigan delegation should be seated at the convention, and without a fight before the Credentials Committee or on the floor of the convention,? they said in a statement Friday afternoon.

A person close to the negotiations, who requested anonymity to discuss private talks, said the Clinton campaign was receptive to the June revote plan but the Obama forces were holding back for now.

The person said that Michigan Republicans, who control the State Senate, said they would not stand in the way. But Democrats, who control the state House of Representatives, are divided between Clinton supporters and Obama supporters. ?The Clinton people say they?re not going to block it,? the source said. ?The question is what the Obama people are going to do.?

The situation in Florida seemed more intractable, with Clinton supporters arguing the party?s prospects in November could be jeopardized if a satisfactory resolution is not found. Some Clinton backers said they were intentionally withholding their contributions to the party, arguing that Howard Dean, the D.N.C.?s chairman, has left the situation in the hands of the states and the candidates, as opposed to exercising leadership to resolve it.

?My wife and I could max out, and we won?t,? said Ira Leesfield, a Miami lawyer who has given $61,500 to the committee since 1997. ?We?re dissatisfied with the D.N.C. not taking the bull by the horns.?

About 250 top fund-raisers for Mrs. Clinton met Wednesday in Washington. Terry McAuliffe, the Clinton campaign?s chairman and a former chairman of the Democratic National Committee, encouraged the donors to pick up the phone and call party leaders, as did Mrs. Clinton.

But Mr. McAuliffe said in an interview Friday that he did not approve of donors? holding back their contributions to the D.N.C.

A review of records filed with the Federal Election Commission shows that top donors to the committee gave more to Mrs. Clinton than to Mr. Obama. Of 196 people who have given at least $30,000 to the D.N.C. since 2005, it appears 71 of them contributed to Mrs. Clinton, with donations totaling more than $295,000, while 67 gave to Mr. Obama for about $189,000. And 25 gave to both.

Stacie Paxton, a spokeswoman for the D.N.C., defended Mr. Dean?s handling of the dispute.

?While Howard Dean has been working hard to be an honest broker, too many involved have been more concerned with headlines than results,? Ms. Paxton said. ?It?s never productive to negotiate through the process, but make no mistake, Howard Dean will continue to lead the effort to find a workable solution that?s fair and consistent with the rules.?


Dean DNC Nightmare



"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2008, 06:56:59 PM »
Why should voters in two states be ignored?

You aren't going to vote for either Democrat, so what the Hell do you care?

Why should anyone find your opinion of any value?
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Christians4LessGvt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11151
    • View Profile
    • "The Religion Of Peace"
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2008, 07:04:25 PM »
"Why should anyone find your opinion of any value?"

I do.

Isn't that why we are all here? To share and discuss our opinions on political topics?
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" - Ronald Reagan - June 12, 1987

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2008, 07:39:03 PM »
Why should voters in two states be ignored?

Ask the Democrat party....they're the one that violated their own rules, and why neither Hillary or Obama campaigned, and Obama didn't even put his name on one of them.  Apparently they were all fine and dandy with "ignoring" those states then.  But hey, if you guys want to move the goalposts and change the rules midgame...AGAIN..., by all means, knock your socks off


You aren't going to vote for either Democrat, so what the Hell do you care?

I'm interested in integrity, honesty, a playing by the rules approach........in other words, enjoying highlighting when the Dems fail miserably at all 3


Why should anyone find your opinion of any value?

Strangely, I'm not seeking anything outside of voicing my opinion.  Why do you ask?  Is yours that much more shaky??  Are you desperately seeking "value" for your opinion?
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2008, 10:14:18 PM »
The Democrats have a confusing rules system, but Juniorbush has been incompetent at damned near everything: mongering unnecessary wars, running up a huge deficit, making enemies of out traditional friends.

I do not run the Democratic Party, and I did not establish the Democratic Party's rules, but I did vote in the primary. I fail to see who New Hampshire or Iowa are more important than Florida.

Both parties need to do a better job of running primary elections. What we have is a haphazard mess.

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2008, 08:45:38 PM »
The Democrats have a confusing rules system

Ahhh, that explains it     ::)


I do not run the Democratic Party, and I did not establish the Democratic Party's rules, but I did vote in the primary. I fail to see who New Hampshire or Iowa are more important than Florida.

Well, best talk to your Dem buds, since apparently they don't think you should count either.  And sorry, can't blame Bush or Cheney on that one (though I wouldn't put it past you to figure out a way)


Both parties need to do a better job of running primary elections. What we have is a haphazard mess.

Yea, the GOP's is such a mess currently      ::)

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2008, 10:31:01 PM »
This may kill the issue of competance for the Democrats.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2008, 11:05:57 PM »
The Democrats are more democratic. That is not incompetence.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2008, 11:14:32 PM »
The Democrats are more democratic. That is not incompetence.

They are less democratic in this particular question , or less competant at democracy rather.

Universe Prince

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • Of course liberty isn't safe; but it is good.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2008, 11:38:07 PM »

The Democrats are more democratic.


You're joking right?
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
--Hieronymus Karl Frederick Baron von Munchausen ("The Adventures of Baron Munchausen" [1988])--

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2008, 12:49:32 AM »
The Democrats are more democratic. That is not incompetence.

LOL......and that was our joke for the evening.  Than you, Xo     :D
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2008, 09:30:47 AM »
The Republicans are never democratic. There is a group who decides who the nominee will be, and even if it is a total boob like Juniorbush or a corrupt yutz that could not be elected dogcatcher like Bobdole, he's their guy and they call the rest of them and tell them to quit.

McCain is their one compromise with semi-competence in decades, because the oligarchy wants to continue bleeding us for their useless war for as long as possible, and Romney is beyond unelectable. Unlike Dole, he has no real friends in the oligarchy, since they don't trust Mormons due to their reputation for honesty. Dole was a whore you could buy with a nice deal on a condo, like the one he got here in Bal Harbour from ADM's president for a pittance.

I repeat, what both parties need is a decent primary system rather than the silly hodgepodge we have.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

sirs

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27078
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2008, 07:42:09 PM »
Come on Xo, don't hold back, tell us how you really feel.  In fact, you forgot to mention how evil Cheney is
« Last Edit: March 18, 2008, 08:27:57 PM by sirs »
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Rich

  • Guest
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2008, 08:21:45 PM »
>> In fact, uou forgot to mention how evil Cheney is ...<<

Grown ups seem to really bother liberals.

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Oooopsie
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2008, 08:36:43 PM »
You are about as grown up as that annoying little redskin racist caricature  you have decided to adopt: phony, offensive and dated.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."