Obama's Dimestore "Mien Kampf"

[Universe Prince]

>>Except no one was bashing Christians. Once again, Rich is victorious against a strawman.<<

Right. Right. Associating Hitler with Christianity doesn't reflect on Christianity in a negative way.

Right.

So, if I follow your logic, discussing historical facts is equivalent to bashing Christians. No, I don't agree, but that you apparently do sure explains a lot.

[Rich]

What does it explain?

Please enlighten us with your great insight into my opinion on this matter.

 

[Universe Prince]

The repeating over and over and over and over again of the Christian "influences" & "aspects" Hitler and his Nazi Regime had, and the bringing about of Fascism.  THAT insidious connecting.

So discussing history is insidious connecting? If we talk about Hitler and the Nazis being in Germany, have we insidiously connected the Nazis and Germany? If we talk about the pagan influences in Nazi propaganda, have we insidiously connected Nazis and paganism? If we talking about Hitler being elected (which is sort of true) have we insidiously connected voting and Nazism? If we talk about Hitler and the Autobahn, have we insidiously connected Hitler and driving? Or are we just talking about historical facts?

[Rich]

>>No one here has said that "Hitler's or Mussolini's motivations were Christian in nature." I have no idea who you are arguing with.<<

So you deny that Hitler was preaching Christianity in order to influence Christians? Aren't you saying that's what he was doing? In order for your premise to be true, Germans would have had to buy into the message. Since you're beating the historical fact drum, you can certainly produce some kind of evidence that his Christian message worked. You would also have to produce some kind of support from the Church, if we are to believe Christiany in any way supported Hitler's message. Otherwise it's just a madman spouting nonsense. (Hitler, not you)

Waiting ...

[Universe Prince]

Remember, these are folks who all went into little tizzies over discussing fascisms influence on modern liberalism. There was none right?

Your memory is somewhat faulty. This particular folk, which is to say me, was one of those who bothered to explain the connection between fascism and modern liberalism.

[Universe Prince]

Saying Hitler or Mussolini's motivations were Christian in nature

And Rich attacks another strawman. No one said anything about the motivations of Hitler or Mussolini being Christian in nature.

[Universe Prince]

What does it explain?

Please enlighten us with your great insight into my opinion on this matter.

Says the strawman attacker.

It explains why you're denying historical facts. Apparently you actually think discussing the facts is some sort of attack on your faith. I've known folks like that. I once knew a guy who that said no matter what scripture one might quote from the Bible to prove otherwise, he knew any drinking of any sort of alcoholic beverage was a sin. You've decided you know what's true about the matter, and facts only muddy the water. Your faith is true and pure and good--and apparently fragile--and mention of anything that might indicate your faith was ever used for anything not true and pure and good is therefore a lie. So you deny, attack strawmen, and claim righteous victory. And any one who claims to be Christian who does not agree with you, is therefore not actually Christian, not part of the true faith. Their faith is weak; their faith is despicable; their faith is false and full of lies. You are the Pharisee. This is what is explained about you.

[sirs]

The repeating over and over and over and over again of the Christian "influences" & "aspects" Hitler and his Nazi Regime had, and the bringing about of Fascism.  THAT insidious connecting.

So discussing history is insidious connecting?

No, not at all.  I wish our education system, especially in the public sector, spent more time discussing & teaching history.  Repeating a perversion of the Christian religion with Hitler and Fascism, would be the "insidious connecting", I'm referring to.  Grasping the difference yet?

[Universe Prince]

>>No one here has said that "Hitler's or Mussolini's motivations were Christian in nature." I have no idea who you are arguing with.<<

So you deny that Hitler was preaching Christianity in order to influence Christians?

Saying Hitler used Christian language to sway people is not the same as saying Hitler's motivations were Christian. This much is obvious with a little basic reading comprehension.

[Universe Prince]

Repeating a perversion of the Christian religion with Hitler and Fascism, would be the "insidious connecting", I'm referring to.  Grasping the difference yet?

No. Once more, no one is claiming the Nazis or Hitler were good, moral Christians. The facts of the matter are that the Nazis used aspects of Christianity to further their own ends and that some churches (which includes members of those churches) actually embraced Nazism.  One might argue it was insidious on the part of the Nazis, but this acknowledgment of that series of historical events is in no way insidious or designed to denigrate Christianity. To suggest otherwise is to imply that JS and I have some desire to belittle our own faith and be associated with Nazis. And I'm more than a little insulted by this. No, I don't believe you necessarily intend it that way, but JS and I are Christians, and you're saying we're out to denigrate Christianity and to make an insidious connection between Christianity and Nazism. So you might not intend it that way, but you're saying it just the same.

[_JS]

>>No one here has said that "Hitler's or Mussolini's motivations were Christian in nature." I have no idea who you are arguing with.<<

So you deny that Hitler was preaching Christianity in order to influence Christians? Aren't you saying that's what he was doing? In order for your premise to be true, Germans would have had to buy into the message. Since you're beating the historical fact drum, you can certainly produce some kind of evidence that his Christian message worked. You would also have to produce some kind of support from the Church, if we are to believe Christiany in any way supported Hitler's message. Otherwise it's just a madman spouting nonsense. (Hitler, not you)

Waiting ...

Seriously?

Let's see, we have Austrofascism, Rexism (the long form of the name is Christus Rex, a Belgian Fascist movement that was very popular amongst the Walloons), Monsignor Jozef Tiso was the Catholic priest and Fascist dictator of Slovakia during World War II. He allied the nation directly with Hitler and even helped invade Poland in 1939. I shouldn't even have to mention the Falange in Spain, who literally wrote Franco's policies after the Civil War. Clerical Fascism is a well known and documented historical reality.

That does not mean that there weren't great sacrifices made by Christians to do the right thing. Here is but one example of a man who stood against both nationalism and Fascism and paid the ultimate price to do what was right. He put God before nation.

Hitler was a shrewd politician. The better question is, why would he bother making these appeals to Christians if there were no reason to do so? There is clear evidence that it worked. The truth is that Hitler did not kill 7 million people. Hitler, personally, probably killed very few - if any at all. He had a lot of loyal followers who were ready to pass orders down the chain of command and kill or be killed. That kind of loyalty does not come cheap. In a nation of Christian people, how did he attain this trust to carry out the war and the Holocaust? His and other Fascists work with and on Christian Nationalism helped them to achieve that.

[sirs]

Repeating a perversion of the Christian religion with Hitler and Fascism, would be the "insidious connecting", I'm referring to.  Grasping the difference yet?

No. Once more, no one is claiming the Nazis or Hitler were good, moral Christians. The facts of the matter are that the Nazis used aspects of Christianity to further their own ends and that some churches (which includes members of those churches) actually embraced Nazism.

 

And once more, I'm not denying the mutating of Christianity by many, to push one's patently non-Christian agenda.  It's pretty much indentical to the mutating of Islam by Islamofascists.  My point all along, is the insidious repetition of pulling Christianity into the conversation, so often when Hitler is being discussed....AS IF there's some intimate connection between the 2, in which there isn't.  It's simply a mutation of the Christian doctrine/message, used to propogandize and spearhead an obvious NON-Christ like agenda

 

[Xavier_Onassis]

Let's see, we have Austrofascism, Rexism (the long form of the name is Christus Rex, a Belgian Fascist movement that was very popular amongst the Walloons), Monsignor Jozef Tiso was the Catholic priest and Fascist dictator of Slovakia during World War II. He allied the nation directly with Hitler and even helped invade Poland in 1939. I shouldn't even have to mention the Falange in Spain, who literally wrote Franco's policies after the Civil War. Clerical Fascism is a well known and documented historical reality.
=======================================================================================

In the US, there was Father Charles Coughlin, America's very own Fascist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Coughlin

And of course, Franco's Falangista movement in Spain was an alliance of the Holy Mother Church, the Army (who was see as carrying the faith to the Muslims in Morocco), and the ultra-rightwing Carlistas. They were opposed in Spain by the usual suspects: the Anarchists, the Communists, the Jews, the Freemasons and scientists and intellectuals in general.

Without arms and funds from Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany, it is unlikely that the Falangistas could have won the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939).

[Universe Prince]

My point all along, is the insidious repetition of pulling Christianity into the conversation, so often when Hitler is being discussed....AS IF there's some intimate connection between the 2, in which there isn't.
 

Okay, so then why scoff at the mention of Christian nationalism? If we're all agreed that it exists, agreed that it was part of the Nazi's move to power, then why ridicule the mention of it? I mean, if someone had said, "Hey yeah look at those Nazis, they were Christians too, right?" I could understand the scoffing because then it would make sense. But that didn't happen. What was said was this: "Because Hitler's rise to power is a remarkable testament to Christian nationalism." If we are all agreed that is what happened (well, all except Rich) then why the comment, "Hitler was only following Christ's teachings, right?" Because at no point in the discussion did anyone say Hitler was following Christ's teachings. At no point, did anyone say Christianity as taught by Christ is an inherent part of Nazism. So why the ridicule?

Leaving aside for the moment the question of whether Muslim extremist terrorists are actually fascists, let's look at a term you like to use, "Islamofascism". You say "Islamofascists" are using a twisted version of Islam, correct? Yet you still attach the "Islamo-" prefix to your term for their group and ideology. Are you making an insidious connection, are you claiming there is an intimate connection between Islam and terrorism? Let's go the record: "It's pretty much indentical to the mutating of Islam by Islamofascists." Okay then. So when someone mentions Christian nationalism, as JS did, that is not saying Nazis were true disciples of Christ. It's just acknowledging what happened in history. No one here (except maybe Rich) is trying to propagate language that implies Christianity is inherently fascist.

So can we please put this ridiculous notion to rest and get back to an intelligent discussion? Thank you.

[sirs]

My point all along, is the insidious repetition of pulling Christianity into the conversation, so often when Hitler is being discussed....AS IF there's some intimate connection between the 2, in which there isn't.
 

Okay, so then why scoff at the mention of Christian nationalism?

When the qualifier is not placed that such a twisting of the Christian doctrine, is occuring.  Left as is, begs the inferrence that Christianity is intimate with Fascism and the rise of Hitler.  THAT's why