Behavior modifacation vs racism

[Universe Prince]

It would be rediculous to imply that people sans Islam would be inofensive

Yes. I've said as much before.

Islam is not the only way to excuse bad behaviors .

As a tool of violence and an excuse of violence Islam has recently been used , but it is really the people involved and not the excuses they use that you want to talk about?

I don't recall saying anything about excuses. To be clear, I'm not excusing anything. What I am talking about is keeping the personal responsibility aspect, which is involved in the actions, in the discussion.

All right fine, make the separation for me between Islam and the blasts on trains in Madrid and busses in London.

Okay. Islam did not blow anything up. People using bombs blew things up.

The KKK had the same pretentions twards Christianity that Al Queda has on Islam , but the Southern Christian Leadership council found Christianity usefull in appealing to the People of Christ , Christians generally wanted to make a sepration between "their " Christianity and the pretentions of those willing to bomb Birmingham churches.

Are you suggesting there is no difference between the religious beliefs of the members of the KKK and Christians who did not agree with the KKK?

Does Islam have the potential to police itself in any respect ?

Well golly, I don't know. Are there people involved?

[Plane]

Are you suggesting there is no difference between the religious beliefs of the members of the KKK and Christians who did not agree with the KKK?

Does Islam have the potential to police itself in any respect ?

Well golly, I don't know. Are there people involved?

As it turned out there was a difference , for many years the difference was not enough to make the separation.The KKK's claims of Christianity worked for them for decades , finally falling when they seemed rediculous.

Have you not realized yet that Religion cannot be discussed in absence the discussion of people?
When people have something in common that common thing and the differences that result can be discussed .

I think this connects to the concept of racism , which also does not occur without persons to harbor it, yet "racism" is supposed to be simple as if it existed in isolation from its complex Hosts?

Al Queda and its apologists do claim to be very devout , is there anything in Islam that can make this seem rediculous?

To People

[Plane]

All right fine, make the separation for me between Islam and the blasts on trains in Madrid and busses in London.

Okay. Islam did not blow anything up. People using bombs blew things up.

So hensforward I shall never use the term Islam without adding that I mean the people who carry the belief system called Islam?

Shall I make a macro?

This is like haveing to specify each time we talk of Chickens we mean the bird kind.

[Universe Prince]

As it turned out there was a difference , for many years the difference was not enough to make the separation.The KKK's claims of Christianity worked for them for decades , finally falling when they seemed rediculous.

So, are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?

Have you not realized yet that Religion cannot be discussed in absence the discussion of people?

Have I not realized it? Heh. I'm the one who has been arguing that we need to discuss the people involved. People, individuals, as opposed to the category. You know, "the category you place this creature in holds more importance to you than the individual creature."

When people have something in common that common thing and the differences that result can be discussed .

Yes, indeed so.

I think this connects to the concept of racism , which also does not occur without persons to harbor it, yet "racism" is supposed to be simple as if it existed in isolation from its complex Hosts?

No, not as if it existed in isolation from its "complex Hosts". Rather, as if it really isn't that complicated a thing. And, quite frankly, it is not that complicated. Inclined planes are made and used by people, but they really are simple things. Racism is really a simple thing. Racism is the belief that people of a different race or skin color are inferior. They might be inferior because they are stupid, immoral, evil or just different, but it is not hard to define or difficult to understand.

Al Queda and its apologists do claim to be very devout , is there anything in Islam that can make this seem rediculous?

To People

Sure.

Other people.                         Duh.

[The_Professor]

JS: "Racism is a very simple because it fills a base human desire. It places a group above another. Nationalism does the very same thing. Both fill a very simple need amongst many people. "You may be one of the dregs, you may be a nobody, but at least you're white. You can always look down on the other races."

Or:

"You may be a dreg, you may be a nobody, you may be a simple guy, but at least you're an American and you can always look down on people from other countries."

You can put any nation in there and it still works as long as you give them enough mythology and symbolism to fill their fantasies and make them feel that they are a part of something better than themselves. Racism and Nationalism are very basic and very similar. "

How are patriotism and nationalism similar and/or different? Can it be construed that being patriotic is being racist?

[_JS]

JS: "Racism is a very simple because it fills a base human desire. It places a group above another. Nationalism does the very same thing. Both fill a very simple need amongst many people. "You may be one of the dregs, you may be a nobody, but at least you're white. You can always look down on the other races."

Or:

"You may be a dreg, you may be a nobody, you may be a simple guy, but at least you're an American and you can always look down on people from other countries."

You can put any nation in there and it still works as long as you give them enough mythology and symbolism to fill their fantasies and make them feel that they are a part of something better than themselves. Racism and Nationalism are very basic and very similar. "

How are patriotism and nationalism similar and/or different? Can it be construed that being patriotic is being racist?

Patriotism is a tool of nationalism. Patriotism is a feeling, an emotional involvement with one's nation. Nationalism is a system of symbolism and mythology (which includes historical fact as well) to place a nation above others amongst the people.

Is patriotism equivalent to racism? No, not necessarily.

[Plane]

As it turned out there was a difference , for many years the difference was not enough to make the separation.The KKK's claims of Christianity worked for them for decades , finally falling when they seemed ridiculous.

So, are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?


Other people.                         Duh.

Duh in deed , your point is  trivial.

There is no Islam where there are no people , when we began to speak of it we were always speaking of people . I doubt strongly that anyone here thought we might be speaking of Islamic Squirrels.

It is as if you did not notice that there are no Islamic Squirrels and you had to keep correcting me to remind me over and over ad nausium that Islam includes people , may I quote you ....
                                               Duh.

I can't think of a point more trivial to make on this subject , yet we can't progress past it?

So, are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?

I am encouraged that you have understood what I have said , finally , of course you understood it entirely in reverse, but considering how poorly we have been communicateing this week that is progress.

The KKK considered themselves Christian so strongly that they would likely do you violence if you were to question their Christianity . Their propaganda for many years portrayed them as the bulwark of defense of Christian civilisation against the enemys of Christianity . This seems rediculous now .

One reason it seems rediculous is that they stood against people who were {to people} evidently better Christians , and their behavior seemed quite often to be contrary to the teaching of Christ, but this was a development that took years and several cathartic episodes.

During the time that the KKK seemed truely to be an Empire its membership didn't amount to a majority of Christians , nor did even its outermost casual supporters included make up a majority of Christians . Yet it is a sad fact that their pretentions to being Christians served them as propaganda and cover in a nation of Christians.




{Disclaimer } Christians shall in all uses be construed to refer to Human beings.

[Universe Prince]

Duh in deed , your point is  trivial.

I respectfully suggest you consider that perhaps what was trivial was not my point, but your question.

and you had to keep correcting me to remind me over and over ad nausium that Islam includes people

And I might again if you speak again of Islam as if it acts on its own or as if individuals are not responsible for their actions.

I can't think of a point more trivial to make on this subject , yet we can't progress past it?

Of course we can, if you will end pointless and ridiculous arguments that everyone is supposed to assume you mean only some people in Islam when you make blanket comments about Islam.

So, are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?

I am encouraged that you have understood what I have said , finally , of course you understood it entirely in reverse, but considering how poorly we have been communicateing this week that is progress.

The KKK considered themselves Christian so strongly that they would likely do you violence if you were to question their Christianity . Their propaganda for many years portrayed them as the bulwark of defense of Christian civilisation against the enemys of Christianity . This seems rediculous now .

One reason it seems rediculous is that they stood against people who were {to people} evidently better Christians , and their behavior seemed quite often to be contrary to the teaching of Christ, but this was a development that took years and several cathartic episodes.

During the time that the KKK seemed truely to be an Empire its membership didn't amount to a majority of Christians , nor did even its outermost casual supporters included make up a majority of Christians . Yet it is a sad fact that their pretentions to being Christians served them as propaganda and cover in a nation of Christians.

You did not answer the question. If we are to improve our communication, perhaps you could start with that.

[Plane]

So, are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?

I am encouraged that you have understood what I have said , finally , of course you understood it entirely in reverse, but considering how poorly we have been communicateing this week that is progress.

The KKK considered themselves Christian so strongly that they would likely do you violence if you were to question their Christianity . Their propaganda for many years portrayed them as the bulwark of defense of Christian civilisation against the enemys of Christianity . This seems rediculous now .

One reason it seems rediculous is that they stood against people who were {to people} evidently better Christians , and their behavior seemed quite often to be contrary to the teaching of Christ, but this was a development that took years and several cathartic episodes.

During the time that the KKK seemed truely to be an Empire its membership didn't amount to a majority of Christians , nor did even its outermost casual supporters included make up a majority of Christians . Yet it is a sad fact that their pretentions to being Christians served them as propaganda and cover in a nation of Christians.

You did not answer the question. If we are to improve our communication, perhaps you could start with that.

Good greif! What remains unanswered?

I in no respect ever considered Islam to be acting in absensense of human beings , I never made a blanket accusation that can be construed in any respect to include all of the people that are Muslim , I not o0nly never denyed that the KKK were Christian , but my whole point referenceing them was to compare their idea of useing Christianity to Al Quedas idea of useing Islam.

I begin to suspect you of playing obtuse just to play around .

[Universe Prince]

So, are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?

I am encouraged that you have understood what I have said , finally , of course you understood it entirely in reverse, but considering how poorly we have been communicateing this week that is progress.

The KKK considered themselves Christian so strongly that they would likely do you violence if you were to question their Christianity . Their propaganda for many years portrayed them as the bulwark of defense of Christian civilisation against the enemys of Christianity . This seems rediculous now .

The question was not whether the KKK considered themselves Christian. The question was "are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?" Is this not a straightforward question?

I in no respect ever considered Islam to be acting in absensense of human beings , I never made a blanket accusation that can be construed in any respect to include all of the people that are Muslim ,

"Islam is directing religious intolerance twards the Non -Islamic."

I not o0nly never denyed that the KKK were Christian , but my whole point referenceing them was to compare their idea of useing Christianity to Al Quedas idea of useing Islam.

I begin to suspect you of playing obtuse just to play around .

No. I'm asking questions. I don't say I never assume, but I try to not assume. When I communicate with people who expect a lot of assumptions, this can cause problems, but I still prefer to not make assumptions.

[Plane]

So, are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?

I am encouraged that you have understood what I have said , finally , of course you understood it entirely in reverse, but considering how poorly we have been communicateing this week that is progress.

The KKK considered themselves Christian so strongly that they would likely do you violence if you were to question their Christianity . Their propaganda for many years portrayed them as the bulwark of defense of Christian civilisation against the enemys of Christianity . This seems rediculous now .

The question was not whether the KKK considered themselves Christian. The question was "are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?" Is this not a straightforward question?

no

I in no respect ever considered Islam to be acting in absensense of human beings , I never made a blanket accusation that can be construed in any respect to include all of the people that are Muslim ,

"Islam is directing religious intolerance twards the Non -Islamic."

[][][][][][][][] This is an abridgement of my reply , not what I said.[][][][][][][][][][]

I not o0nly never denyed that the KKK were Christian , but my whole point referenceing them was to compare their idea of useing Christianity to Al Quedas idea of useing Islam.

I begin to suspect you of playing obtuse just to play around .

No. I'm asking questions. I don't say I never assume, but I try to not assume. When I communicate with people who expect a lot of assumptions, this can cause problems, but I still prefer to not make assumptions.

What ever brought to your mind that I might deny the Christian Status of the KKK ?
That is for Christ to do , and he might , but not because I think so.

I brought up the KKK because they made ill use of Christianity in a manner simular to Al Quedas use of Islam .

Yes , the KKK is made up of people , Christians are people , not all Christians are sympathetic with the KKK .
The Al Queda is people , Muslims are 100% people , not all Muslims are fans of Al Queda.

Henseforward I would not feel poorly used if you were to assume that I already knew that All Christians were people , that All Muslims are people and that the responsibility for a crime rests on the criminal primarily , regaurdless of how he was pursueded.

Haveing Assumed myself that you knew that all Muslims were people , I have wasteed a lot of time on this very trivial point.



 

[Rich]

>>The question was not whether the KKK considered themselves Christian. The question was "are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?" Is this not a straightforward question?<<

I would have to say that no, if you are a member of the Klu Klux Klan you are not a Christian. Even if you claim to be one.

[Plane]

>>The question was not whether the KKK considered themselves Christian. The question was "are you now saying members of the KKK are not and cannot be Christians?" Is this not a straightforward question?<<

I would have to say that no, if you are a member of the Klu Klux Klan you are not a Christian. Even if you claim to be one.

I think you have a point , but when he asked me if I was " now saying " I had not yet said anything of the sort. So no it isn't a straightforward question .

A Christian can be very wrong about almost anything , a better Christian is closer to Christ , but who is the judge of this?

The KKK lived in a Christian Comunity and covered themselves with the sympols and retoric that would win the sympathys of the people they needed for support.

[Rich]

Atheists and leftists like to claim that for Christians to judge others is unchristian. There's no biblical or Church doctrine that supports such a claim. Judge not, lest yea be judged isn't a disclaimer against a Christian pointing out that a KKK member isn't acting like a Christian. It teaches us that we aren't perfect and we should be careful about judging. Okay, I've been careful and I've come to the conclusion that if you are a member of the KKK you cannot possibly be a Christian. I base this on the teachings of the Church and the words of Jesus Christ.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't think Jesus would admire a KKK member much either, but I am pretty sure that whatever few members the KKK has left mostly regard themselves as Christians.

Jesus had very little to say about racism. In his day, there were Jews, Samaritans, Romans and no doubt a number of others, but if skin color differed, there is no mention of it in the NT at all. Mostly, Jesus hung out with other Jews. There were no Roman or Samaritan apostles so far as we know.

I am happy to let Christians and everyone else decide who belongs and does not belong in whatever group.