Author Topic: President George Bush Kicking A$$  (Read 54022 times)

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Cynthia

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #135 on: June 03, 2008, 11:13:36 PM »

I am not clear on your meaning here, XO. How can one culture be "below" another? I can understand Third-World struggling to compete with the West, etc. But....
The culture of Persia is vast,  rich and very old (old in a good way;). Culturally speaking, How can you say that any nation or culture of people is " above, on or below" a "level" of some sort?

==========================================================
I meant that the literacy level of Iran was quite a bit below that of Turkey, and that a smaller percentage of the population had access to that great Persian culture of yore. I imagine that superstition among the country people was higher, and far fewer people had access to medicine, the media and education.An Iranian friend of mine told me that it was not that until after the Shah that the peasants on his family's land could actually leave. They were serfs, and were bought and sold with the land.

I agree that Persia has a rich culture, but during the time of the Shah, it was mostly for the elite.


Sure, the Shah was a bad apple. I am not denying that, but I find it rather arrogant, not to mention obscene when anyone in a leadership position takes the life of another based on a party favor, or political membership.
My ex husband is a doctor in this country. He was privileged, sure enough. But his father was no less human, yet he was killed for being "elite". Shame on calling one worse than another.. . when lives were taken so brutally without a trial for criminal actions. I find anyone's support of the Ayatollah to be naive and ignorant. Killing is killing....elite or poorer class.


So, you are in favor of doing THIS just because one is a member of "the elite"?
Even while attempting to put in place the institutions of the new order, the revolutionaries turned their attention to bringing to trial and punishing members of the former regime whom they considered responsible for carrying out political repression, plundering the country's wealth, implementing damaging economic policies, and allowing foreign exploitation of Iran. A revolutionary court set to work almost immediately in the school building in Tehran where Ayatollah Khomeini had set up his headquarters. Revolutionary courts were established in provincial centers shortly thereafter. The Tehran court passed death sentences on four of the shah's (Mohammad Reza Shah) generals on February 16, 1979; all four were executed by firing squad on the roof of the building housing Ayatollah Khomeini's headquarters. More executions, of military and police officers, SAVAK agents, cabinet ministers, Majlis deputies, and officials of the shah's regime, followed on an almost daily basis
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 11:22:10 PM by Cynthia »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #136 on: June 04, 2008, 07:51:12 AM »
I surely do not support the Ayatollah or the Iranian revolutionary government. Not being Iranian and all, however, this is rather a moot point, since I have no influence over who runs Iran.

The Shah was a definite bad apple, but he was an apple placed on the throne by the CIA, who overthrew an elected and secular government to put him there. That was a big mistake. Then Kissinger used his influence with the Shah to support Israel and its annexation of Palestinian territory against the will of the people of Iran. A lesser mistake.

By the time the Shah was dying and the Ayatollah was poised to take his place, the CIA was overtaken by events and could do very little. They could encourage a war between Iraq and Iran and supply weapons in the right numbers to keep it going. Only Allah knows how much fuel that wasted.

When the Iran elected the guy before Ahmedinejahd, the US could have started overtures to normalize relations, but Juniorbush being dominated by Zionist Neocons and being stubborn and stupid to boot, nothing happened, and Ahmedinejahd was elected.

Our State Dept under Rice is really a bunch of fools. They did nothing to normalize relations with Iran, and they called for Palestinian elections and got Hamas elected.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #137 on: June 04, 2008, 03:53:59 PM »
Well, Js one man who is "hated" isn't equal to another man who is feared, especially if there aint much a person can do to control either outcome. It's not like there was a democratic vote on the issue.
Indeed, JS< Khomeini was much worse. Remember the story; It Could Be Worse" ? Well, those of whom you speak had no real clue of how bad it was going to get. (The frog in the hot water analogy.)
Follow my tune to the ends of the earth.....I know you want to. You hate, afterall, right?
ahhh, GOT Ya. 
Iranians did not have the freedom to chose whom to "hate more" or less like we do in this country.

Only those who were able to understand the reality of the situation --those who were living outside the Perian culture---on American soil at the time, knew that things were actually going to be better under the regime that was so "hated:".
Women were at least able to speak up, find a voice back then, JS..... albeit one baby step at a time..but it was progess at it's slowest and best . . of that I know for a fact.


Sometimes all of this  makes me wonder just how much we really understand in terms of the depth of "help" the US has given in the direction of the Iraqis with this "war". I would love to ask Iraqi-American citizens how they truly believe their country is faring. .

FOr some reason Americans have one of two extreme trains of thought;
a) Oh,those poor bastards in the "other" world---they have not seen the "light" if they can not or will not grasp democracy as it has been served to them on a gold patter !
b) Well, of course every nation, every culture, has every right to do what they feel is best for themselves. Why interfere?.....let a country be.

Ok, well, they got what they DIDN'T SEE COMING....just like Hiter, imo.
The interests of the Iranian  free thinking (on the verge of understanding democracy and what it felt like to be free in so many ways) instead traveled...no dive bombed back centuries in exchange for that poor bad ass apple(the Shah) that folks hated and rallied against.

Cynthia,

I don't wish to be arrogant and I have great respect for you and whomever amongst your family, friends, or other loved ones you may have lost in the 1979 revolution.

I think what a lot of Americans don't understand is that it wasn't a certainty to the outside world that Khomeini would take the position he did as leader of the country. It was thought for a while that he'd take residence at Qum and act as a Shi'a religious leader and leave the politics to others. Of course that is not what happened.

The Iranian Revolution was odd as it came as a strong Conservative revolution in the midst of what were mostly leftist-Marxist revolutions around the world. In general, conservative revolutions are somewhat rare.

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Cynthia

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #138 on: June 04, 2008, 11:00:02 PM »
Cynthia,

I don't wish to be arrogant and I have great respect for you and whomever amongst your family, friends, or other loved ones you may have lost in the 1979 revolution.


JS, thank you for your sensitivity in this matter. There were friends and members of my ex husband's family who were killed -outright. We had so many friends who naively and patriotically went "back home" after securing an education here in New Mexico in Electrical Engineering, who were ripe for a  fight against Iraq....they are now dead.

It wasn't easy for us to hear of such news. Sure, I was married to this man. I was a young woman in college at the time, and for those who are curious, I did not marry this man to secure any sort of citizenship for his future.  After graduating with an Electrical Engineering degree he pursued a degree in Bio-medical engineering. But young love is just that...young not always equipped to survive the long term. sadly.....We just went our seperate ways. Those were beautiful years for me, and yet hellish for him, I could tell. Amir was in turmoil for so many reasons. He was in fear of his nation's downfall...and ready to face a new life here in the states. He was also only 23. I was 19.
He had no connection with his own mother, who had given birth to him at age 13!!  She was divorced from Amir's father in the mid 50's(when Amir was 2) and yet she found a way to exit the country and live and work in Paris, France. And.... she did it the hard way. She traveled up and over the Turkish mountains by car...a hard trek, indeed, back and forth from Tehran to Paris for years, all the while she learned a special trade in Paris. She learned how to sew and make exquisite clothing and " facial make-up" from the French--- then she would return to Tehran...sell her products to the Emperial family in Iran and on and on....She reminded me of Jackie Kennedy Onassis in a way. SHe was powerful, young and damn strong...not to mention wealthy in her own right. She had a home in Beirut until the city was halfway destroyed...Beirut . Eventually she married a Frenchman and settled in France, then had two more children. Amir was not allowed to see her throughout his youth.  When he came to America, he swiftly made contact. AFter we were married, we visited her in Europe. It was quite something to see Amir's love for his lost long mother after 20 years.
Ok, so that's a bit of the family history.....married while so young...19-24.


I think what a lot of Americans don't understand is that it wasn't a certainty to the outside world that Khomeini would take the position he did as leader of the country.

But, Iranians knew exactly what was coming down the pike. They knew that nothing else mattered...nothing else "counted back then. Americans didn't know squat, JS.
They still don't. TO be honest.




It was thought for a while that he'd take residence at Qum and act as a Shi'a religious leader and leave the politics to others. Of course that is not what happened.

It was never thought that he would do anything but take over...the majority of Iran was like XO stated...poor and culturally starved. He was supposed to "rescue" them from a toxic regime. Ignorance was bliss and there was no othe reference point to bank on in terms of what was reality. That's not to judge the Iranian people, but they were in the dark with regard to what was about to really happen.  What was not evident was the underground successes --those  movers and shakers that were on the edge of living in a new and competent world. Women, men and children were happier, however underground in a state of disarray...Oh my, happiness wasn't allowed, at least not in the way of the western copy cats. The way I see it, reminds me of the  teenager who is willing to take risks, explore,. want for more, expose self for the sake freedom. Ahh....such a ripe and fresh attitude. The down side?- Those parents are watching and about to pounce, reprimand and restrict the teen from having any of that=========fun. Naive young person. . . overtaken by the power that is freedom of expression. Damn...coulda woulda shoulda.....kept the joy underground. Iranians were on the edge, and walking a "Fine line".

 


The Iranian Revolution was odd as it came as a strong Conservative revolution in the midst of what were mostly leftist-Marxist revolutions around the world. In general, conservative revolutions are somewhat rare.


Well, the revolution was in favor of fairness across the board, and religion was a the heart of it all. Poor vs Wealthy....Which is the bottom line of many a revolution. This one was no exception.

Education vs Powerlessness is what was at the forefront. The sacrifice of those "westernized" people in Iran meant everyone would now live under one dictator/a religious dictator...but one who was supposed to "cure" the ills of the people under the Shah. Afterall, Iranians (Persians) lived that way for years before...no problemo.

Change is scary. Change is challenged.
But, the antithesis is not always the best route to take.

The people of Iran were just beginning to shine on, become "polished/recognized" as thriving "individuals". Ah, but when the Ayatollah landed on  his old Persian homeground, with a promise of a "new beginning"--singing that song; "give me  that old time religion, oops I mean killing" nothing else ruled the day....Unfortunately, those  Persians who hoped for a life with any sort of advancement as individuals, were suddenly thrust into a no safe zone compromised and spirtually ruined for life. There was no chance for expression, no chance of much...especially for women.  There was safety in numbers.....risk free numbers, follow the almighty power based male dominated master.  oh but of course they were suddenly safe from the tyrant that was The Shah. . . My Allah,  at what cost?

We still see the struggles of the culture, the nation and it's inability to "play well with others"


« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 01:01:33 AM by Cynthia »

Cynthia

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #139 on: June 05, 2008, 12:47:16 AM »
I surely do not support the Ayatollah or the Iranian revolutionary government. Not being Iranian and all, however, this is rather a moot point, since I have no influence over who runs Iran.

The Shah was a definite bad apple, but he was an apple placed on the throne by the CIA, who overthrew an elected and secular government to put him there. That was a big mistake. Then Kissinger used his influence with the Shah to support Israel and its annexation of Palestinian territory against the will of the people of Iran. A lesser mistake.

By the time the Shah was dying and the Ayatollah was poised to take his place, the CIA was overtaken by events and could do very little. They could encourage a war between Iraq and Iran and supply weapons in the right numbers to keep it going. Only Allah knows how much fuel that wasted.

When the Iran elected the guy before Ahmedinejahd, the US could have started overtures to normalize relations, but Juniorbush being dominated by Zionist Neocons and being stubborn and stupid to boot, nothing happened, and Ahmedinejahd was elected.

Our State Dept under Rice is really a bunch of fools. They did nothing to normalize relations with Iran, and they called for Palestinian elections and got Hamas elected.


You seem to hold such disdain for the CIA. HMMMM?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #140 on: June 05, 2008, 11:54:49 AM »
You seem to hold such disdain for the CIA. HMMMM?

=======================================
The CIA is a criminal bunch of imperialists when they succeed, and a blundering array of nincompoops when they don't.

Installing the Shah was said to be a "success".

The intel leading up to the Iraq War was a dismal failure.

They were unable to call the toppling of the USSR or the end of East Germany, and their clever advice to hold elections in Plaestine was less than a crowning success.

 Guess which one earned the director a Medal of Freedom.

We'd be better off by disbanding the CIA, blowing it up, leveling Foggy Bottom with bulldozers and convertiong it into an upscale Mall, all pretty and striped for lotsa fee parking.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #141 on: June 05, 2008, 12:50:43 PM »
You seem to hold such disdain for the CIA. HMMMM?

=======================================
The CIA is a criminal bunch of imperialists when they succeed, and a blundering array of nincompoops when they don't.

Installing the Shah was said to be a "success".

The intel leading up to the Iraq War was a dismal failure.

They were unable to call the toppling of the USSR or the end of East Germany, and their clever advice to hold elections in Plaestine was less than a crowning success.

 Guess which one earned the director a Medal of Freedom.

We'd be better off by disbanding the CIA, blowing it up, leveling Foggy Bottom with bulldozers and convertiong it into an upscale Mall, all pretty and striped for lotsa fee parking.

There was very little intelligence gathering by tyhe government before WWII , MI6 taught our flecgeling spys how to conduct business.

Can we really do without them the way we used to?

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #142 on: June 05, 2008, 12:56:49 PM »
Can we really do without them the way we used to?

======================================
This is like asking whether we could still swim as well without a couple of our traditional anvils strapped around our necks.

Bad intel is worse than none at all.

We need intelligence, but what the CIA gave us was less than useful.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Cynthia

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #143 on: June 05, 2008, 10:13:41 PM »
Can we really do without them the way we used to?

======================================
This is like asking whether we could still swim as well without a couple of our traditional anvils strapped around our necks.

Bad intel is worse than none at all.

We need intelligence, but what the CIA gave us was less than useful.

Ok, so the CIA gave us bad intell with regard to teh Iraq war. Unless of course the intell was close, and somewhat accurate, but the powers that BE decided to twist the information to their advantage and call a war.
If the CIA WAS respsonsible for putting the Shah in power, as you state here, I still don't see how that was a bad thing, as the alternative did very little to secure communication or relations between Iran and the United States.

My point. Where's your proof that the CIA is THAT incompetent, worthless and should be turned into a parking lot............Xavier, aren't you just pissed at the power that the CIA  holds and the decisions that it makes in the long run --such as calling a war, etc. (a war that was not so well planned, horribly executed and down right wasteful and immoral)?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2008, 10:16:47 PM by Cynthia »

Cynthia

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #144 on: June 06, 2008, 12:08:25 AM »
Well, Js one man who is "hated" isn't equal to another man who is feared, especially if there aint much a person can do to control either outcome. It's not like there was a democratic vote on the issue.
Indeed, JS< Khomeini was much worse. Remember the story; It Could Be Worse" ? Well, those of whom you speak had no real clue of how bad it was going to get. (The frog in the hot water analogy.)
Follow my tune to the ends of the earth.....I know you want to. You hate, afterall, right?
ahhh, GOT Ya. 
Iranians did not have the freedom to chose whom to "hate more" or less like we do in this country.

Only those who were able to understand the reality of the situation --those who were living outside the Perian culture---on American soil at the time, knew that things were actually going to be better under the regime that was so "hated:".
Women were at least able to speak up, find a voice back then, JS..... albeit one baby step at a time..but it was progess at it's slowest and best . . of that I know for a fact.


Sometimes all of this  makes me wonder just how much we really understand in terms of the depth of "help" the US has given in the direction of the Iraqis with this "war". I would love to ask Iraqi-American citizens how they truly believe their country is faring. .

FOr some reason Americans have one of two extreme trains of thought;
a) Oh,those poor bastards in the "other" world---they have not seen the "light" if they can not or will not grasp democracy as it has been served to them on a gold patter !
b) Well, of course every nation, every culture, has every right to do what they feel is best for themselves. Why interfere?.....let a country be.

Ok, well, they got what they DIDN'T SEE COMING....just like Hiter, imo.
The interests of the Iranian  free thinking (on the verge of understanding democracy and what it felt like to be free in so many ways) instead traveled...no dive bombed back centuries in exchange for that poor bad ass apple(the Shah) that folks hated and rallied against.

Cynthia,

I don't wish to be arrogant and I have great respect for you and whomever amongst your family, friends, or other loved ones you may have lost in the 1979 revolution.

I think what a lot of Americans don't understand is that it wasn't a certainty to the outside world that Khomeini would take the position he did as leader of the country. It was thought for a while that he'd take residence at Qum and act as a Shi'a religious leader and leave the politics to others. Of course that is not what happened.

The Iranian Revolution was odd as it came as a strong Conservative revolution in the midst of what were mostly leftist-Marxist revolutions around the world. In general, conservative revolutions are somewhat rare.



JS,

I might also add that your reference to being arrogant means very little in terms of my personal stance on this issue.

The Iranian people living in Iran should actually be the subject of your "apology" (of arrogance)..... as they were promised a better and more complete life by the Ayatollah, just as the Germans were promised a better life by Adolf Hitler.... The Persian people were promised a new regime with a "back to relgious basics" hope on the horizon----a regime that would solve all the problems and enhance the wishes and the will of the people, sans the Shah.

SO, your reference to being arrogant in terms of "my comment" is not necessary. It's the Iranian people who deserve the truth... unfortunately the majority of the people did not see the hell that was at their doorstep. They did not even know the hell that was in front of the doorstep. Reference points are key here. They had no real reference point,so they were not really even caught by surprise.
 Any hope to grow as individuals was halted, yet they had no idea there was such a hope of such a world of expression or individualism, JS. Let's be real here.

1979-2008 30 years later?

Let's compare the regime in the past 30 years to what could have been if the Shah and the United States had been able to move forward. Ok, not possible, I realize. But, the hint of freedom of expression, the freedom to better oneself as a human being was at least on the horizon. Politics is such an ugly snake. The Shah was seen as such a bad snake. But, what was the alternative? 30 years of no growth. Who knows what could have been. That's where I disagree with XO. Why the hell does he think that the CIA is that bad? What replaced the CIA involvement? Years of stagnation with no chance of moving forward educationally or culturally. . . that's what. Women can't hold any sort of power. who knows what the world in Iran could have been in today's time? Let a culture change, I say. Let a society grow---with or without the help of the west.
There is no sign of any growth now, is there? No, not really. We are battling the powers in Iran over oil, land, power struggles, and our very existence. Geezzus!! I have to say that I hate to hear that the American government is that bad to compare to what is happening now. I agree that the Bush admn. was stupid, but I do not agree that America is a bad apple government, overall.


Arrogance? Nah. Look at the History as well as the steps that were taken --backwards--  the very mindset of Iran that was on the horizon to making a global connection was destroyed. We can't compare the past to the present...because the past was ripped away.

Ok, now we need to communicate with Iran., Where are we now?

I see such a reference to your arrogance to be a misguided point, with all due respect. The arrogance lies in the Ayatollah's rape of the minds of the free thinkers in each and every Persian. We can't assess because we can'ts document what could have been. 

My god, the Shah---the CIA ----whatever organizations that were in operation back then would have made a hell of a lot more progress for the west-east connection than what we have now.


« Last Edit: June 06, 2008, 12:35:29 AM by Cynthia »

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #145 on: June 06, 2008, 06:47:38 PM »
The CIA not only did not have adequate intel abo0ut Iraq, it also failed to predict the collapse of East Germany, the fall of the USSR, the collapse of Ceauceascu, and still thinks that the Cuban embargo is going th cause the overthrow of Fidel, even though that it hasn';t done that in 49 years.

They were also the geniuses that did the intel that called for elections in Palestine.

Wherever people hate my country in the world, it is because of the CIA.

They suck. They deserve to be abolished.

Tomorrow, or sooner.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Cynthia

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #146 on: June 06, 2008, 10:27:09 PM »
The CIA not only did not have adequate intel abo0ut Iraq, it also failed to predict the collapse of East Germany, the fall of the USSR, the collapse of Ceauceascu, and still thinks that the Cuban embargo is going th cause the overthrow of Fidel, even though that it hasn';t done that in 49 years.

They were also the geniuses that did the intel that called for elections in Palestine.

Wherever people hate my country in the world, it is because of the CIA.

They suck. They deserve to be abolished.

Tomorrow, or sooner.


Come on, there has to be something good about the CIA. Afterall, the organization belongs to WE THE PEOPLE OF THE US of A!
Look at it this way. What would we be without the CIA?

I still feel that the nation of Iran was a coulda woulda 'state'. Who knows what could have transpired if capitalism was allowed to bloom in the mid east.

There has to be a happy medium between freedom and restraint.

Plane

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #147 on: June 06, 2008, 11:53:04 PM »
The CIA not only did not have adequate intel abo0ut Iraq, it also failed to predict the collapse of East Germany, the fall of the USSR, the collapse of Ceauceascu, and still thinks that the Cuban embargo is going th cause the overthrow of Fidel, even though that it hasn';t done that in 49 years.

They were also the geniuses that did the intel that called for elections in Palestine.

Wherever people hate my country in the world, it is because of the CIA.

They suck. They deserve to be abolished.

Tomorrow, or sooner.


Come on, there has to be something good about the CIA. Afterall, the organization belongs to WE THE PEOPLE OF THE US of A!
Look at it this way. What would we be without the CIA?

I still feel that the nation of Iran was a coulda woulda 'state'. Who knows what could have transpired if capitalism was allowed to bloom in the mid east.

There has to be a happy medium between freedom and restraint.


They have a good site.... https://www.cia.gov/offices-of-cia/public-affairs/index.html

check the kids page...

https://www.cia.gov/kids-page/index.html



Or the world factbook....https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

Cynthia

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #148 on: June 07, 2008, 12:40:44 AM »
Thanks, Plane. I'll look at them all.

Cynthia

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: President George Bush Kicking A$$
« Reply #149 on: June 07, 2008, 03:14:44 AM »
Come on, there has to be something good about the CIA. Afterall, the organization belongs to WE THE PEOPLE OF THE US of A!
Look at it this way. What would we be without the CIA?

-------------------------------------------------------
Lots better off, actually. That is my point.
----------------------------------------------------------
I still feel that the nation of Iran was a coulda woulda 'state'. Who knows what could have transpired if capitalism was allowed to bloom in the mid east.

What Iran needs is more democracy and a whole lot less religion.

The CIA was not and is not in the business of providing either. If they had just let Mossadegh continue to be the elected leader of Iran, and Arbenz the elected leader of Guatemala, and kept their nasty little hands off a dozen other places we would all be better off.

The CIA is incompetent at what it is supposed to do, namely provide reliable intelligence, and counterproductive at dirty tricks, assassinations, manipulations and other somesuch crap that disbanding it and replacing it with what is really needed would be a boon to us all.

There has to be a happy medium between freedom and restraint.

The CIA isn't it, and could not be that even if it tried, not that it has or would try.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."