President George Bush Kicking A$$

[hnumpah]

ditto

Was that before or after you discarded it, or are you changing horses in midstream again?

[sirs]

Apples & Oranges, H.   I discarded your apple, I dittoed Bt's orange.  Please try to keep up.

[Cynthia]

Explain to what degree we should intervene from least resistive to the last resort. Threatened can take on many meanings in terms of "fighting back" or intervening. We ARE TO INTERVENE. How?  Sanctions, intel, spying, etc?

I'm not privvy to standard escalation protocols, Miss Cynthia, perhaps Pooch or MajorStrictland would.  That said, from this civilian's standpoint, you've already touched on some, though I'd consider intel as one of the most basic, starting with simple electronic & sattelite surveillance.  But if their are Americans (such as in embassy's) or America itself is under a direct threat, and that threat can be connected to ....... let's say Iran, than sanctions are indeed in order, hopefully with the compliment of UN & US diplomatic efforts, in order to help Iran see the error of their ways (the threat they are facilitating).  If the threat is not reduced, then harsher sanctions are in order, and here's where military saber rattling can also be considered.  Parking a pair of Carrier Battle Groups in the gulf, with large scale military "drills", in nearby airspace.  If the threat continues or escalates, you then can start calling in military assets and park them off the border.  As I said, war is a LAST resort, but becomes necessary if the enemy is not backing down or adhering to the will of the International community

And let me add, as I've referenced from the time Bush went into Iraq, even though Bush did get UN unanimity that Iraq was not in compliance with 1441, and that serious consequences would ensue if found that to be the case, when it comes to our own national defense, we're not obliged to seek UN approval to defend ourselves.  I am impressed Bush even went so far as to get that.  It wasn't necessary in my book, given the intel we had at the time

For the first time I am actually concerned that we (the US OF A) are biting off too much and we can never chew it all.

Who else lives on this planet? Come on. This is not all about America. We are powerful, but we are also not in charge of the world. We can't possibly be, Sirs.     When you speak of Iran not being in compliance with something, and as a result they must suffer serious consequences...WHO'S GUNNA DO THAT?/ US?
HOW?
oK, We are not "obliged to seek UN approval to defend ourselves, but when did Iran or Iraq ever attack our soil?

After reading more in depth on the history of the two nations (Iraq and Iran), they have enough problems between themselves for US to be doing ANYTHING! We have yet to be threatened. Now, granted, we have to be aware of such a threat, but we attacked Iraq! They didn't attack us! My god. I am concerned that we have taken on the power monster role and yet we are whimps in garments.

Sirs, WE MUST have global support in order to do anything in terms of a fight against such nations. You don't think that if we attack Iran that Iraq and Syria and other nations in the region with NOT fight us back? I wonder.
We must be more careful how we negotiate our board pieces. .  if indeed this is a game to secure freedom.

The culture of such nations is old.....rrrrrreally old and they are not about to discuss whether religion is on or off the table. They are also not equiped to discuss if America is to be feared on that same table. Hell, if we went to war with IRan, we would be surrounded in the camp by so many other nations who hate our guts right now.

If I were you, I wouldn't be flexing any American muscle so quickly and so arrogantly.

It's time for brain not brawn. The America you speak of is old history, imo. Sure we are still strong, but we must not forget that we had support in both WW1 and WW2 globally. The UN is weak. That has been evident during this Iraqi "war". We can't possibly "run" the planet, Sirs. This isn't our father's generation, nor do we want it to be. (or our grandfather's, depending on your age).

My concern is that we are jumping into a bully mindset. It's one thing to defend oneself. It's clearly another to react instead of proact.

If I hear you correctly, I hear that you have no bones about flexing our military might against Iran.
Big mistake. Big...HUGe.
Russia is just around the corner, and we don't have such a great relationship with them as we did some 15 years ago.
Who the heck knows how the Nuke age will turn out. The IRON age didn't do that well thousands of years ago.. . 

Perhaps prayer is in order. It helped the IRish when the Iron age Celtics decided to bury any king not capable of growing corn.

[Plane]

The US should do as it did for WWI and WWII?

Enter late?

After the rest of the Allience had joined up already?

[Cynthia]

The US should do as it did for WWI and WWII?

Enter late?

After the rest of the Allience had joined up already?

Plane,
It's a different world since the times of WW1,2
Enter what later?support our troops. We are a lone wolf and the dogs are going to trample us all.

We have rushed in without thinking this time around. No one is saying we shoudl be late to the ball.


But the ball this time around was nothing more than a ballet lesson gone bad.....a premature action with no real thought put into it.....poor planning. There is never going to be another world war like we had in the romantic mid 20th century.

My god...this is a battle ground in in alleyways, around old bashed up structures called homes...streets that protect total neighborhoods with no real soldier warfare in sight.

This is a gang war on the edge of the world with dangerous tactics. Dangerous tactics sans other nations to support our efforts. This is hell without the glory. Not like any other war. Unless BT can point out that we are securing freedom and democracy in this nation of Iraq. Time will tell? We've had more years in that WW2 thus far. hmmm, dont' think it's your typcial war.

This is never going to be a World War 2 scenario.

I wish it were.
I wish we could call this a full supportive war with troops and Americans and Europeans and and and all the rest rallying to kill the bastards who decided to stick their sick hatred in our direction. But it is not a matter of joining late...it's a matter of playing smart.

Bush wasn't smart.
Period

[sirs]

When you speak of Iran not being in compliance with something, and as a result they must suffer serious consequences...WHO'S GUNNA DO THAT?/ US?
HOW?

Depends......if it's not affecting U.S. security, then its the UN's ball

oK, We are not "obliged to seek UN approval to defend ourselves, but when did Iran or Iraq ever attack our soil?

And tell me where are we attacking Iran?  You asked me for a hypothetical scenario.

Sirs, WE MUST have global support in order to do anything in terms of a fight against such nations.

If its in reference to national security, and can be determined to be a direct threat, then must have?, no.  Would like to have?, absolutely. 

If I hear you correctly, I hear that you have no bones about flexing our military might against Iran.

No, then you're not hearing me correctly.  The "flexing" would be in response to something Iran did or was supposed to do, but didn't.  It's not just big bully America picking on a bunch of little nations.  And did you miss the gradual excalation brought about by further Iranian, or whatever other terrorist sponsoring country was doing.  And did you miss that war was absolutely a LAST resort?

[Plane]

The US should do as it did for WWI and WWII?

Enter late?

After the rest of the Allience had joined up already?

This is never going to be a World War 2 scenario.

Why not?
Next time we are going to be as smart as Lindburg.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Apples & Oranges, H.   I discarded your apple, I dittoed Bt's orange.  Please try to keep up.

"Please try to keep up"

Face it, sirs, you are on some sort of weird ego trip.
That's it, isn;t it...they just didn't make you hall monitor enough in Junior High, did they?

[sirs]

Face it Xo, your typical snarking insults are getting more lame the closer to the election we get

[Xavier_Onassis]

So that's it. They wouldn't make you hall monitor and let you wear the Hall Monitor Official Sash, would they?

In the event that you are unaware, your constant crap about "please pay attention" is not only snarky, it is unoriginal and lame.

It's not like your words are precious gems we are required to treasure.

[sirs]

Getting even lamer.  Perhaps they have a medication for that.  Some sort of over the counter stimulant is in order. 

But seriously, you apparently need to keep up as well.  H unloads a flawed minor insult at me, I reply with its correction, and my own condescending remark.  You jump in with your typical snark, while giving the instigator a pass.  Sounds a tad prejudgemental and biased, I'd say.  then again, my words are "no prescious gems", so why you apparently read them, and worse, respond to them, is beyond me

[Cynthia]

No, then you're not hearing me correctly.  The "flexing" would be in response to something Iran did or was supposed to do, but didn't.

LOok at our track record, Sirs. flexing would be in response to what exactly? Where's the threat to our country? What would cause us to invade "flex" Iran?
I hope you aren't going to tell me that they "might have a few dangerous weapons of mass destruction". That's not a reason to go to war against another nation without the support of many other nations.

 It's not just big bully America picking on a bunch of little nations.  And did you miss the gradual excalation brought about by further Iranian, or whatever other terrorist sponsoring country was doing.  And did you miss that war was absolutely a LAST resort?


NO, I did not miss your step by step, inch by inch escalation(on the steps to war) scenario into Iran, Iraq or any other nation in the middle east. Frankly, I find your tone to be  bit of a bully right there, Sirs. Don't try to intimidate me with your condescending remarks.

Ok, then , this is what you said;

".....let's say Iran, than sanctions are indeed in order, hopefully with the compliment of UN & US diplomatic efforts, in order to help Iran see the error of their ways (the threat they are facilitating).

Hmmm, Sirs, "error of their ways" ?   in the same sentence as "hopefully with the compliment of UN efforts"??

What an arrogant statement; error of the their ways'. Good thing you aren't on the planning committee, Sirs. Wait, perhaps you were.....this talk of hopefully, and tsk tsk bad boy attitudes sounds very Bushlike to me!

"If the threat is not reduced, then harsher sanctions are in order, and here's where military saber rattling can also be considered.

Step by step, inch by inch .......

 "Parking a pair of Carrier Battle Groups in the gulf, with large scale military "drills", in nearby airspace.  If the threat continues or escalates, you then can start calling in military assets and park them off the border.

Parking our assests off the border??? Are you nuts?? How is that going to look like a non-threatening action, oh and I might add, JUST PRIOR to your LAST RESORT oF WAR??

Step by step, inch by inch.......


 "As I said, war is a LAST resort, but becomes necessary if the enemy is not backing down or adhering to the will of the International community"

aH OK, I see, NOW it's your LAST resort segment of the plan. . .HMMM, OK, WELL, IT seems to me that your last resort started taking baby steps way up in the parking lot and airspace in your post.

I don't recall Bush taking any step by step, well planned, strategic cautionary actiosn, before rolling down the road into Bahgdad. Heaven forbid that we would take on (fight) any nation as a last resort or a sort of pretend last resort, as did Bush. He would be the type to speak of "hopefully this and hopefully that" just because we are we. We are powerful.  We hit the sand so damn fast that no one had a chance to sit back and think things through imo....AND, I might add, Iraq never sent one lone camel to park in our lot....not one bomb, not one terrorist, not one palm tree replanted in Florida..nada. Yet we headed into that country like Hummer road rage cowboys. Even American cowboys are smarter than that.

And let me add, as I've referenced from the time Bush went into Iraq, even though Bush did get UN unanimity that Iraq was not in compliance with 1441, and that serious consequences would ensue if found that to be the case, when it comes to our own national defense, we're not obliged to seek UN approval to defend ourselves.  I am impressed Bush even went so far as to get that.  It wasn't necessary in my book, given the intel we had at the time

IT WASN'T NECESSARY?? Now that's arrogance, Sirs. That's flat out American bully arrogance. Come on!
NO compliance with 1441 is the reason we are losing lives like flies on zapper lights every single day??

[sirs]

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect, you almost appear to be arguing for the sake of arguing.  You're implying positions that you've wrongly deduced from the original speculative question you posed.  I'm not advocating parking CBG's outside of Iran based on their diplomat giving the finger.  the parking of CBG's would occur AFTER there had already been escalation of a direct threat posed by Iran, that hadne't been heeded yet.  Troops across the border would be from an escalation of intervention.  Hopefully it never gets to those points, but I'm not going to rule them out as an option

And as far as your apparent position that we need the permission of the UN to defend ourselves from a intel determined threat....well, I'm just glad you're not the President's NSA

[Cynthia]

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect, you almost appear to be arguing for the sake of arguing.  You're implying positions that you've wrongly deduced from the original speculative question you posed.  I'm not advocating parking CBG's outside of Iran based on their diplomat giving the finger.  the parking of CBG's would occur AFTER there had already been escalation of a direct threat posed by Iran, that hadne't been heeded yet.  Troops across the border would be from an escalation of intervention.  Hopefully it never gets to those points, but I'm not going to rule them out as an option

And as far as your apparent position that we need the permission of the UN to defend ourselves from a intel determined threat....well, I'm just glad you're not the President's NSA

We sure needed better intel than we got from the previous NSA. Your argument does not have room for discussion. Seems to me that you want to give warning tickets with a pack of six on your hip.
When will America see that we can't just rush into a war like we did in Iraq without some responsibility to scrutinize the intel that is on the table?
Where's the excuse for poor intelligence. . . seems that Bush's NSA was thinking along the lines of you, Sirs...and see where that has gotten us!

[sirs]

Miss Cynthia, with all due respect, you almost appear to be arguing for the sake of arguing.  You're implying positions that you've wrongly deduced from the original speculative question you posed.  I'm not advocating parking CBG's outside of Iran based on their diplomat giving the finger.  the parking of CBG's would occur AFTER there had already been escalation of a direct threat posed by Iran, that hadne't been heeded yet.  Troops across the border would be from an escalation of intervention.  Hopefully it never gets to those points, but I'm not going to rule them out as an option

And as far as your apparent position that we need the permission of the UN to defend ourselves from a intel determined threat....well, I'm just glad you're not the President's NSA

We sure needed better intel than we got from the previous NSA. Your argument does not have room for discussion. Seems to me that you want to give warning tickets with a pack of six on your hip.

Apparently you missed my initial response to your speculative question, indicating my goal of using electronic intel gathering and diplomacy 1st and formost.  HARDLY showcasing a Smith & Wesson on our hip, to begin with.  And given our previous intel, Bush acted precisely how he should have

When will America see that we can't just rush into a war like we did in Iraq....

OY