The Summer of Love

[Plane]

The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers.

Absolutely not, this view cannot be defended by anything like logic.
Nor is there any benefit from the attempt to enact such law.

[_JS]

The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers.

And do they not lease their labor for an agreed upon wage?

Yes. That's how capitalism works I am told.

[Plane]

Plane, I think the fact that you and Hitler agree on class division is rather significant, even if you do not. You brought Herr Adolf into this conversation, not me. Robespierre did not divide by class at all. Robespierre was an extremely intelligent orator who helped form the Committee on Public Safety during the French Revolution. He was an avid anti-Monarchist and republican. He believed in finding all forms of pro-monarchy views and destroying them. It had nothing to do with class. It was bloody and destructive, but it was not class driven at all. Your view is ahistorical.

The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers. They simply need the class consciousness to realize the power that they have. If they do not work, all of the power that the bourgeoisie possess is gone in an instant. They simply need to remove the cultural and societal burdens that keep them blinded and pushed down. The workers are far from powerless.

Robespierre did not divide by class at all.

I don't understand that, how did he devoid the French into those he would kill and those he would not?

[_JS]

The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers.

Absolutely not, this view cannot be defended by anything like logic.
Nor is there any benefit from the attempt to enact such law.

I'll quote from Nelson Rockefeller after he toured his factories in Latin America in the 1930's he gave an address to his fellow corporate leaders:

"We must recognize the social responsibilities of corporations and the corporation must use its ownership of assets to reflect the best interests of the people. If we do not, they will take away our ownership."

They did not. And they did.

They will not. And they will.

[_JS]

Plane, I think the fact that you and Hitler agree on class division is rather significant, even if you do not. You brought Herr Adolf into this conversation, not me. Robespierre did not divide by class at all. Robespierre was an extremely intelligent orator who helped form the Committee on Public Safety during the French Revolution. He was an avid anti-Monarchist and republican. He believed in finding all forms of pro-monarchy views and destroying them. It had nothing to do with class. It was bloody and destructive, but it was not class driven at all. Your view is ahistorical.

The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers. They simply need the class consciousness to realize the power that they have. If they do not work, all of the power that the bourgeoisie possess is gone in an instant. They simply need to remove the cultural and societal burdens that keep them blinded and pushed down. The workers are far from powerless.

Robespierre did not divide by class at all.

I don't understand that, how did he devoid the French into those he would kill and those he would not?

Not meaning to sound harsh Plane, but did I not just explain that?

He did not care what your economic background was. If he thought you were anti-republic - you would lose your head. If you voiced support for the monarchy, you could be a worker, a street beggar, or an aristocrat and still lose your head.

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't understand that, how did he devoid the French into those he would kill and those he would not?
   

==============================================
I don't think he devoided anyone. Perhaps you mean divided them.

Mostly, criticizing Robespierre would get you on his sh*t list, as would being a member of the nobility.
Eventually, he confused so many people by executing others at random that they banded together and sent him to the guillotine to prevent him from sending them first, which was almost certainly a wise idea from their standpoint.

[BT]

Yes. That's how capitalism works I am told.

And in your world, what would be different?

Would labor not be traded for something?

[Plane]

The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers.

Absolutely not, this view cannot be defended by anything like logic.
Nor is there any benefit from the attempt to enact such law.

I'll quote from Nelson Rockefeller after he toured his factories in Latin America in the 1930's he gave an address to his fellow corporate leaders:

"We must recognize the social responsibilities of corporations and the corporation must use its ownership of assets to reflect the best interests of the people. If we do not, they will take away our ownership."

They did not. And they did.

They will not. And they will.

Ok Rockfeller saw it comeing, who benefited from the nationalisation?

[_JS]

Yes. That's how capitalism works I am told.

And in your world, what would be different?

Would labor not be traded for something?

Of course. The people who perform the labor would also own the company.

[BT]

Of course. The people who perform the labor would also own the company.

They can do that in a capitalist society. They have this thing called stock.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Absolutely not, this view cannot be defended by anything like logic.
Nor is there any benefit from the attempt to enact such law.

===================================================
Why of COURSE there is.

A large pile of iron ore and another of coal is of little use to you or anyone.

It is labor that turns it into a car.

A barrel of oil is of little use to you as it comes from the ground. If you turn it into fuel and plastics, this is done with labor. Labor adds value to raw materials. Labor is the base of industrial society.

The labor of the men who invent the machinery, who build the machinery and who run the machinery are absolutely indispensable to the conversion of raw materials to useful products.

Does the salary of a beer executive add to the taste or refreshment that a beer produces? Would it taste differently without a fancy label on the can or a bazillion dollars spent on ads?

It is the labor of the farmer, the trucker, the brewers that turn the ingredients into beer.

If you fail to see the logic, you are not functioning within reasonable parameters.



 

[Plane]

Plane, I think the fact that you and Hitler agree on class division is rather significant, even if you do not. You brought Herr Adolf into this conversation, not me. Robespierre did not divide by class at all. Robespierre was an extremely intelligent orator who helped form the Committee on Public Safety during the French Revolution. He was an avid anti-Monarchist and republican. He believed in finding all forms of pro-monarchy views and destroying them. It had nothing to do with class. It was bloody and destructive, but it was not class driven at all. Your view is ahistorical.

The rightful owners of the means of production are the workers. They simply need the class consciousness to realize the power that they have. If they do not work, all of the power that the bourgeoisie possess is gone in an instant. They simply need to remove the cultural and societal burdens that keep them blinded and pushed down. The workers are far from powerless.

Robespierre did not divide by class at all.

I don't understand that, how did he devoid the French into those he would kill and those he would not?

Not meaning to sound harsh Plane, but did I not just explain that?

He did not care what your economic background was. If he thought you were anti-republic - you would lose your head. If you voiced support for the monarchy, you could be a worker, a street beggar, or an aristocrat and still lose your head.

That is classes.

Divideing into German and French , rich and poor , monarchist and republican is all division, it is not diffrent than the division that you like .It is ice cream if it is ice cream even if you have chockolate instead of vanilla.

Robspierre was divideing his people into classes that warred against each other .

Hitler did not do diffrently even tho he was more grasping across his borders.

If you choose rich and poor as the division that should be fighting , how do you feel better than a Klansman who choses white and otherwise as the classes that should be fighting?


Unity isn't really that bad.

[Xavier_Onassis]

They can do that in a capitalist society. They have this thing called stock.

=========================
Stock does not turn raw materials into anything useful. It is an arbitrary financial concept.

There are many companies that are private and have issued no stock.

[_JS]

That is classes.

Divideing into German and French , rich and poor , monarchist and republican is all division, it is not diffrent than the division that you like .It is ice cream if it is ice cream even if you have chockolate instead of vanilla.

Robspierre was divideing his people into classes that warred against each other .

Hitler did not do diffrently even tho he was more grasping across his borders.

If you choose rich and poor as the division that should be fighting , how do you feel better than a Klansman who choses white and otherwise as the classes that should be fighting?


Unity isn't really that bad.

Funny, that's what Herr Adolf said.

[Amianthus]

Thousands of people consider cheeseburgers to be the perfect food.

"But times have changed for sailors these days.
When I'm in port I get what I need;
Not just Havanas or bananas or daiquiris,
But that American creation on which I feed!

"Cheeseburger in paradise,
medium rare with mustard be nice
Heaven on earth with an onion slice.
I'm just a cheeseburger in paradise.

"I like mine with lettuce and tomato
Heinz 57 and french fried potatoes
Big kosher pickle and a cold draft beer
Well, good god Almighty which way do I steer

"For my cheeseburger in paradise
Makin' the best of every virtue and vice.
Worth every damn bit of sacrifice
To get a cheeseburger in paradise"