Author Topic: A nation of whiners  (Read 16023 times)

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BT

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2008, 11:05:29 PM »
Phil Gramm Is Right

By Amity Shlaes
Saturday, July 12, 2008; A13

"In serious consideration for ambassador to Belarus." That's the role John McCain joked that former senator Phil Gramm might have in a McCain administration. Gramm is McCain's most senior economic adviser, the one best qualified to lead the finance team of a McCain presidency. Now, however, Gramm faces political exile because he made the mistake of telling the truth.

What prompted the abrupt demotion? The short answer is what might be called Campaign Econ. Campaign Econ says the American economy is a certain way because Americans think it is. Campaign Econ competes with real economics and often wins -- with damage that extends way beyond, say, the political career of either Phil Gramm or John McCain.

Consider what happened this week. While speaking with the Washington Times, Gramm said that the country was not in a true recession but a "mental recession." He also said, "We have sort of become a nation of whiners" and "You just hear this constant whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness, America in decline."

Gramm was right about the recession and stood by his recession comments on Thursday. A recession is two consecutive quarters in which the economy shrinks, and last quarter it grew. But no matter. Voters feel they are in a recession, and so they are, at least according to Campaign Econ.

Gramm's second sin was political. Calling voters whiners is to shame them. He later rephrased this comment, saying it was not voters he meant but politicians. That's because shaming voters is something American politicians simply don't do. Campaign Econ is unabashedly populist, and to seek to elicit shame is regarded as unpardonably elitist. Earlier this year, the McCain team was already terrified of seeming elitist. His advisers convinced themselves that the closeness of the primary contest was due to a lack of generosity. In January, when the McCain folks were desperate to win the Michigan primary, they ground their teeth down as Mitt Romney pandered to the auto industry. Romney's promise of unlimited support for carmakers won him that primary -- but not the nomination. Still, since then, McCain's advisers have sought to prove that he understands Campaign Econ; consider their proposal of a summer gas tax holiday.

That Campaign Econ is also calibrating Barack Obama's economic team goes without saying. The view among the nation's political advisers, from far left to far right, is that the economy is in a Katrina. Anyone who disagrees has no role in the 2008 presidential contest.

Campaign Econ is certainly understandable. Gas prices are ruining vacation plans and killing businesses. Many Americans have lost or are about to lose their homes to foreclosure or in distress sales. The federal government may not be talking about it much yet, but inflation plagues the country. The weak dollar is altering our everyday calculations. For many, this is not a happy summer.

Still, to liken the current moment to the Great Depression, or even the early 1980s, as Campaign Economists have, is to whine, just as Gramm said. During the Depression, people lost their homes even though they had borrowed only 10 percent of the purchase price. People losing their homes today frequently have borrowed 90 percent or more. The country approached double-digit unemployment in the early 1980s. This week, even as McCain was trying to talk his campaign past Gramm's comments, joblessness stood at a historically modest 5.5 percent.

And Campaign Econ has costs. The first is that talk of a downturn -- or "mental recession," as Gramm put -- can itself generate a downturn. Keynesian economists say this is so because consumer spending slows when people are afraid. But there's also a non-Keynesian dynamic. Grumbling leads to costly government rescues that scare markets and slow growth.

Second, as evidenced by the plummeting prices of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shares, serious trouble may be closer than we think. The plunging stock of the government-sponsored mortgage companies reminds us that those entities urgently require restructuring. Wall Street figures and the Senate Finance Committee that Gramm used to chair are already talking about how to structure a bailout. But this task is about stopping recession, not luxuriating in it.

Social Security and Medicare also need rewriting -- and Gramm put forth one of the better proposals on Social Security in the 1990s.

In short, to fix it all, we need a frank conversation about the economy. McCain, in fact, inaugurated one back in 2006 when he gave a speech that was downright Gramm-like at the Economic Club of New York.

In that speech, McCain said that on entitlements, hard choices were necessary. He concluded: "Any politician who tells you otherwise, Democrat or Republican, is lying."

This was McCain at his best. Many voters knew it, too.

The way to strengthen the economy right now is to elect leaders who dare to talk about problems in precise and even technical terms -- and then act on them. McCain has that capacity, but only if he can transcend Campaign Econ.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/11/AR2008071102543_pf.html

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2008, 11:30:58 PM »
There is no logical reason for anyone to complain about the public "whining" about a recession. A person who has just lost his source of income and is faced with foreclosure is in his own personal recession, and all his complaints are legitimate, and not whining, and the last thing he needs is a filthy rich fatcat lobbyist like Gramm, who has millions of dollars and gained most of them by peddling influence and generally being a corrupt piece of sh*t  telling him that he is whining.

The Republicans have been trying to destroy Social Security since 1932. They are far more ikely to get away with this if McCain is elected.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2008, 11:42:05 PM »
Does Grahm actually say that the public is whining?

The whine is from the people who are trying to divide the public, with a false assessment of the state of the economy.

BT

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2008, 11:44:24 PM »
According to the definition of recession, two or more quarters of negative growth, we are not in a recession.

So if we aren't, why are the pols and the press saying we are.

Even when times are good people face adversity.

And it doesn't matter how much money Gramm has in his wallet. What matters is if he spoke the truth.




Michael Tee

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2008, 01:29:37 AM »
<<And it doesn't matter how much money Gramm has in his wallet. What matters is if he spoke the truth.>>

Yeah, well DID he speak the truth?  Did he say that a millions of Americans are really pissed off that gas is at $4 a gallon, that they can see the price of food rising as gas costs rise, that they are losing their jobs and their homes?  Did he mention that the trends in gas prices, in home foreclosures, in job losses, are NOT the direction most Americans want to see their country going?

I  mean, "whining" after all is a pretty subjective assessment.  What might seem like whining to a filthy-rich influence peddler who moves in some pretty wealthy and powerful circles might seem like well-justified, vocal resentment to a lot of honest, hard-working guys not so fortunately placed as Gramm.  What real home "truths" did Gramm actually proclaim to America anyway?

I don't really think the point is whether or not America technically qualifies for use of the term "recession," which is a technical issue of interest only to economists and nit-pickers.  What matters is whether a whole bunch of people are feeling economic pain that they wouldn't be feeling today if gas hadn't shot up to four bucks a gallon and if tighter industry regulation had prevented unscrupulous lenders from making home-purchase loans to people who hadn't a hope in hell of paying them back.

BT

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2008, 01:45:59 AM »
Quote
Yeah, well DID he speak the truth?

Yes he did. We are not in an economic recession.

Quote
What matters is whether a whole bunch of people are feeling economic pain that they wouldn't be feeling today if gas hadn't shot up to four bucks a gallon and if tighter industry regulation had prevented unscrupulous lenders from making home-purchase loans to people who hadn't a hope in hell of paying them back.

No one forced anyone to buy a gas guzzler and no one forced anyone to take out a mortgage they couldn't afford. and those who made bad decisions and seek to blame others for those decisions certainly could be called whiners.




Michael Tee

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2008, 01:59:27 AM »
<<Yes he did [speak the truth]. We are not in an economic recession.>>

Do you really think that all this public concern we see every day is focused on the issue of whether the U.S. meets the technical requirements for a recession?  Or do you think that people are much more concerned about issues like "Gas is $4 a gallon" and "4 homes on this block are under power of sale?"

People are voicing a lot of pain over unwelcome economic developments.  Gramm and his defenders are dishonest in portraying all of this pain being voiced as complaints that the U.S. is in a "recession" and then destroys the strawman he just created (complaints of "recession") by proving on purely technical grounds that there is no recession. 

I consider that to be extremely dishonest.  The essence of the complaints is specific increases in the price of gas at the pump, loss of jobs and now loss of homes to foreclosure or power of sale.  To characterize the complaints as complaints of "recession" and then to prove (on the narrowest and most technical of grounds) that there is no recession is just pulling a typically Republican snow job, using smoke and mirrors to convince people who are really upset about real misfortunes that all's well.  He's a bullshitter and people (most people) see right through him.  THAT'S why even John Insane disowned his remarks.

BT

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2008, 03:31:16 AM »
How many people do you know who lost their jobs this year?

Michael Tee

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2008, 07:21:32 AM »
<<How many people do you know who lost their jobs this year?>>

Personally, none.  So what?  It's not as if I'm personally acquainted with even one-tenth of one percent of the population.  I believe the hard-luck cases being interviewed or written up by the MSM are real people telling real stories.  They can't all be fakes.

BT

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2008, 08:29:47 AM »
Quote
Personally, none.  So what?  It's not as if I'm personally acquainted with even one-tenth of one percent of the population.  I believe the hard-luck cases being interviewed or written up by the MSM are real people telling real stories.  They can't all be fakes.

Never claimed they were fakes. Perhaps the media looks for hard luck stories, because it sells better than life is normal stories.

I know of one guy in town who was laid off, he does metal work but he found work within a week.

The only other people i know with job troubles always have job troubles. So the portrait we see on tv doesn't match the view from my window, nor does it match your view.


Plane

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #25 on: July 14, 2008, 08:49:45 AM »
During the best times the USA has ever had there were some unemployed , some bad luck and some bad decisions.

That there is low unemployment is a fact .

There is the beginning of a difference in the Immigration picture as we are supporting fewer illegal Alians by a small amount.

If the dollar continues to fall and Mexico stats making better money on its oil sales our illegal immigration problem might get solved , but we are still attracting a good number of these guys .

I would like to ask about Canadian economic conditions , our economy's are related , so is Canada feeling much difference yet?

Michael Tee

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2008, 09:19:51 AM »
<<The only other people i know with job troubles always have job troubles. So the portrait we see on tv doesn't match the view from my window, nor does it match your view.>>

Yes but in addition to interviews there are also statistics.  Gas really IS $4 at the pump and I don't think too many workers got pay raises to compensate for that either.  You're trying to make out a "business as usual" case but I think a lot of people (in addition to the usual Sad Sacks) have genuine complaints about the situation.

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2008, 09:45:23 AM »
$4.00 a gallon gasoline is not any sort of a problem for a fatcat ratbastard like Phil Gramm. Phil Gramm calling poorer Americans "whiners" is like Dustin Hoffman or Charleze Theron making fun of junior high school kids in a school play  for their poor acting and makeup skills techniques.

Hoffman and Theron would never do this, of course, because they are not fatcat ratbastards.

Gramm should go back to his Scrooge MacDuck money pool and enjoy swimming around in his ill-gotten gains. No one needs his stupid nonconstructive criticism.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

BT

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2008, 01:43:52 PM »
Quote
Gas really IS $4 at the pump and I don't think too many workers got pay raises to compensate for that either.  You're trying to make out a "business as usual" case but I think a lot of people (in addition to the usual Sad Sacks) have genuine complaints about the situation.

And perhaps you can show me where Gramm said $4 a galllon is not something worth whining about. He was talking about recession. Gas price increases could be categorized as inflationary which would go along with your theory of the declining dollar.

BT

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Re: A nation of whiners
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2008, 01:47:41 PM »
Quote
$4.00 a gallon gasoline is not any sort of a problem for a fatcat ratbastard like Phil Gramm. Phil Gramm calling poorer Americans "whiners" is like Dustin Hoffman or Charleze Theron making fun of junior high school kids in a school play  for their poor acting and makeup skills techniques.

One i don't think he said anything about gas prices.

Two, how do you know Gramm doesn't make most of his purchases at flea markets, garage sales and off of Yugster like certain fat cat professors in South Florida with well performing fund portfolios?

Being thrifty and frugal is not always synonymous with need.