The Truth, the Whole Truth And. . .

[Xavier_Onassis]

When it happened there was no established Christianity , nor for another generation was there any profit in it.

=============================================
Of course not. Paul assembled the various gospels, disciples, tales and quotes and turned it into a major religion. His purpose was not profit, by the way. Paul was after major social change, and it seems to me that he believed everything he said, even the parts he made up himself.

Establishing a religion for profit is a modern, mostly American, XX Century phenomenon.

The priestly class, of course, has always profited from religion. But covertly, as a rule.

[Plane]

When it happened there was no established Christianity , nor for another generation was there any profit in it.

=============================================
Of course not. Paul assembled the various gospels, disciples, tales and quotes and turned it into a major religion. His purpose was not profit, by the way. Paul was after major social change, and it seems to me that he believed everything he said, even the parts he made up himself.

Establishing a religion for profit is a modern, mostly American, XX Century phenomenon.

The priestly class, of course, has always profited from religion. But covertly, as a rule.

Wellll....

You are getting there.

Why would Paul want social change so much he would literally give his life to the cause?

[Xavier_Onassis]

Why would Paul want social change so much he would literally give his life to the cause?

Martyrdom is a way of assuring yourself a place in Heaven, of course, and it serves as a proper model to others.

Paul was not a modern man and did not think like one. He was a Hellenized Jew who had attained (probably purchased) Roman citizenship, and found even that lacking. That was about all anyone of his type could aspire to. Christianity gave him a chance to be a leader.



The social change was to cause people to strive for holiness in Heaven, rather than wealth or even survival on Earth. It was not any sort of social change as we consider it, that is, making life better. Of course, binding people together in religious communion was also a social change.

[Plane]

Why would Paul want social change so much he would literally give his life to the cause?

Martyrdom is a way of assuring yourself a place in Heaven, of course, and it serves as a proper model to others.

Paul was not a modern man and did not think like one. He was a Hellenized Jew who had attained (probably purchased) Roman citizenship, and found even that lacking. That was about all anyone of his type could aspire to. Christianity gave him a chance to be a leader.



The social change was to cause people to strive for holiness in Heaven, rather than wealth or even survival on Earth. It was not any sort of social change as we consider it, that is, making life better. Of course, binding people together in religious communion was also a social change.

I don't see Paul advocateing for any social changes at all , could you be more specific about what these changes he desired were?

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't see Paul advocateing for any social changes at all , could you be more specific about what these changes he desired were?

Read what I wrote. I was clear and thorough and I fail to see what benefit it wold be to rewrite it all over.,

Social change can also refer to life after death, can't it?

The society in Heaven is supposed to be vastly different from the society on Earth, isn't it? If you woke up in a society in Heaven, I am sure you'd notice a change.

[Plane]

I don't see Paul advocateing for any social changes at all , could you be more specific about what these changes he desired were?



Social change can also refer to life after death, can't it?

No , it cannot.

[Xavier_Onassis]

No , it cannot.

=====================


Why not? Is there not a society in Heaven, composed for former Earth-dwellers?

The Kingdom of Heaven is a Utopian society for the former wretched and righteous of the Earth.

Of course, Paul organizing communities of believers also resulted in a social change.

[Plane]

No , it cannot.

=====================


Why not? Is there not a society in Heaven, composed for former Earth-dwellers?

The Kingdom of Heaven is a Utopian society for the former wretched and righteous of the Earth.

Of course, Paul organizing communities of believers also resulted in a social change.

It can only count for those who thihnk it genuine , anyone who thinks it genuine will not be makeing "social change" a big goal.

Heaven is ordered by Gods will.

His organiseing Communitys of beleivers is more like social change , he gives a lot of advice to the far flung churches on how to behave, but he didn't advocate change in law or social station , he advocated change in the person.

[Xavier_Onassis]

but he didn't advocate change in law or social station , he advocated change in the person.
======================================================================

Lenin spoke of creating the "new Soviet Man" Castro, the "New Cuban Man".

Jesus said to his disciples that they should give all their possessions to the poor, quit their jobs and follow him.
That rather sounds like it would be a major social change. Imagine what would have happened had everyone done it...

[Plane]

but he didn't advocate change in law or social station , he advocated change in the person.
======================================================================

Lenin spoke of creating the "new Soviet Man" Castro, the "New Cuban Man".

Jesus said to his disciples that they should give all their possessions to the poor, quit their jobs and follow him.
That rather sounds like it would be a major social change. Imagine what would have happened had everyone done it...

Very good examples , the new man the communists wanted never showed up, even though they had a coupple of generations to controll.

Jesus is asking each individual to accept the guidence of Jesus , the salvation of and the forgiveness of.
Success or failure of this project is acheived individually.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Very good examples , the new man the communists wanted never showed up, even though they had a coupple of generations to controll.

Not actually true. In a population of 250,000,000 between 1917 and 1990 there were LOTS of new Soviet men. They just weren't in the majority. You can say the same thing about good, sincere, Christians. Some people will comply with whatever standard is set, but it will never be enough to guarantee any Utopian state, Christian, Communist or whatever.

[_JS]

Thanks Plane.  Kinda reinforces how even God turned from Jesus when he was up on the cross, bearing all the sins, of all the world, thru-out all of time.  Yet Js seems to imply we should just be cool with it

It is hard work for me , the idea that God loves the sinner and also loves the sin, is hard to understand well enough to argue with it.

You'll note that I never once said that "God loves sin." That is a strawman that you and Sirs keep building and beating to a pulp. It is not an argument I have made.

But back to my point that you never addressed.

Does Christ truly wish you to "hate" your parents in order to follow Him? Or are we perhaps dealing with hyperbole? What makes yours and Sir's OT verse any different?

And yes, there is another verse in Luke that uses the term "hate" and one in Genesis as well.

[_JS]

By the way:

The seven vices in Proverbs 6 (pride, lying, murder, intrigue, readiness to do evil, false witness, and the stirring up of discord) have nothing to do with homosexuality. So even if I submit that this verse means exactly what it says - you and Sirs have still gone beyond its meaning and extended God's hatred beyond scriptural bounds. Have you not?

[sirs]

Speaking of strawman, at no time have I ever referenced that God commanded us to hate anyone, including parents.  So I'd appreciate if you stopped that maliscious representation.  So, more to the point, in your sunday school teaching curriculum, what exactly did God want us to do about sin??  If it's not love it, and if its not be ambivalent to it, what exactly were you taught?  Because, Homosexuality IS a sin, in the eyes of God.  So, what were you taught about sin?, besides that everyone does it in 1 way or another, and that Christ made the ultimate sacrifice in removing our sin.

[_JS]

Speaking of strawman, at no time have I ever referenced that God commanded us to hate anyone, including parents.  So I'd appreciate if you stopped that maliscious representation.  So, more to the point, in your sunday school teaching curriculum, what exactly did God want us to do about sin??  If it's not love it, and if its not be ambivalent to it, what exactly were you taught?  Because, Homosexuality IS a sin, in the eyes of God.  So, what were you taught about sin?, besides that everyone does it in 1 way or another, and that Christ made the ultimate sacrifice in removing our sin.

I was speaking of the verse I cited in Luke. I never claimed that you said to "hate" your parents. Christ said it was a necessity to follow Him. Please read.

I attended a fire and brimstone Southern protestant church when I was young enough to go to Sunday school Sirs. An angry, wrathful, hate-filled God in large doses was what I got every Sunday and Wednesday. Litanies of sins, do's and don'ts, can's and cannot's were spouted by with righteous indignation. I did not know any better.

What I learned later is that it is not about what God feels. God is love (1 John 4:8 & 1 John 4:16). The act of incarnation was one of immeasurable humility and infinite love. The act of crucifixion and expiation was one of sacrifice, love, and reconciliation.

Sin is the product of a fallen man. There is no perfection (Pelagius was indeed wrong). More than that, Luther was right - there is nothing a human can do that earns his or her way into heaven. That is why I do not believe the old Baptist door-to-door question "are you saved?" has any merit whatsoever. I believe that conversion is a lifelong process, which is what the Church tells us.

Does God hate sin? The truth is that the question is irrelevant. We can't possibly know the answer with any certainty. Sin injures our relationship with God and mortal sin may cause a permanent impediment to that relationship. That is why we have reconciliation.

It is similar to the question: will I get into heaven? It shouldn't matter. You should love God for the sake of loving God and following Christ. Let Him worry about your afterlife.