Our Mutual Joy

[Xavier_Onassis]

IT is amazing how the Holy Mother Church claims that the basis for all belief is faith. Faith in the irrational, faith in miracles, faith in the most preposterous occurrences imaginable.

And then, because they seem to have an obsession with logic, they have to invent all manner of "logical" constructs: Limbo, Purgatory, a Holy Spirit, a Trinity, papal infallibility, the immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary, who also had to be 100% Pure to be Jesus's mom.

And their reasoning, no matter how silly it might be, can't be debated, once they have established it, because to disbelieve is to lack faith.

[Cynthia]

What do you have to say about the site, then, if you have checked it out?

Purgatory is official Catholic policy. From the Baltimore Catechism, "Those are punished for a time in purgatory who die in the state of grace but are guilty of venial sin, or have not fully satisfied for the temporal punishment due to their sins."

If you are Catholic, part of your belief system includes purgatory. Did you not study this for your Confirmation?

It was a small part of my RCIA back in 1992,yes. But purgatory has been on the debate table for many people-Catholics and the like. Purgatory is an interesting "policy" as you put it, but I am more interested in discussing the scriptural truth with other Catholic/Methodist/Messianic Jews etc....than reading what I already know is POLICY.

 But, such a debate is really meant for another message board made up of believers in Christ to really tap in depth, that is.

I am glad to hear that you are reading more about the issue, albeit not as a believer. Finding such resources is all well and fine, Ami, but it doesn't get into the meat of the subject that students of theology chose to take because they are truly passionate about such a debate.
But, I appreciate your attempt to try to go there with me, I do.

[Amianthus]

I am glad to hear that you are reading more about the issue, albeit not as a believer. Finding such resources is all well and fine, Ami, but it doesn't get into the meat of the subject that students of theology chose to take because they are truly passionate about such a debate.
But, I appreciate your attempt to try to go there with me, I do.

I don't need to read more on the subject; I studied it quite thoroughly already many years ago.

[Cynthia]

I am glad to hear that you are reading more about the issue, albeit not as a believer. Finding such resources is all well and fine, Ami, but it doesn't get into the meat of the subject that students of theology chose to take because they are truly passionate about such a debate.
But, I appreciate your attempt to try to go there with me, I do.

I don't need to read more on the subject; I studied it quite thoroughly already many years ago.

Studying is one thing....but..

Hey, glad to hear that you are aware of the facts,

[Amianthus]

Studying is one thing....but..

Yes; it is apparently the one thing that adherents don't bother with.

[Cynthia]

Studying is one thing....but..

Yes; it is apparently the one thing that adherents don't bother with.

Explain why, Ami .....please.
How do you know they do not bother to study...perhaps your idea of "study" must be defined in a one size method of study.

The statement that adherents "don't bother"...is broad stroking, if I do say so myself. Perhaps the parameters are not broad enough for this kind of sophisticated study, Ami.

Talk to the nearest theologian...not the nearest computer programmer, if you will.

So, where will you google the answer to this one, Ami?

You say adherents DON'T BOTHER?

Prove it.

[Amianthus]

You say adherents DON'T BOTHER?

Prove it.

Based on my observation of how many adherents don't even know what the foundations of their particular branch of religion are. Purgatory is an example; if you are Roman Catholic, you should believe in the infallibility of the Pope in religious matters. The Pope has said that purgatory exists, and what it's function is. All Roman Catholics should agree with this. If they do not, they either have not studied their own religion, or they should not claim adherence to that religion.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Based on my observation of how many adherents don't even know what the foundations of their particular branch of religion are. Purgatory is an example; if you are Roman Catholic, you should believe in the infallibility of the Pope in religious matters. The Pope has said that purgatory exists, and what it's function is. All Roman Catholics should agree with this. If they do not, they either have not studied their own religion, or they should not claim adherence to that religion.

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People's ties with groups they claim to belong to are often not baed on any sort of logic. Generally it is an emotional tie of some sort. If the Holy Mother Church were to expel everyone that disagreed with any of its may beliefs, there would be a whole lot fewer Catholics. The same is true for other religions, sects and political parties.

I find it amusing that the bit about how the Pope was infallible on doctrinal matters was only passed in the 1860's, though I think they made it retroactive to previous popes.

"The Roman Catholic Popes: Infallible since 1870" is not that great a slogan, if you really think about it, after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

The Mormon prophets seem to have the jump on the Catholics, who still have not elected to declare that the Pope has a direct pipeline to the Supreme Deity. It would be a nice touch, but they'd have to make that one retroactive as well, and some of those old popes couldn't make the cut, I guess.

[Henny]

You say adherents DON'T BOTHER?

Prove it.

Based on my observation of how many adherents don't even know what the foundations of their particular branch of religion are. Purgatory is an example; if you are Roman Catholic, you should believe in the infallibility of the Pope in religious matters. The Pope has said that purgatory exists, and what it's function is. All Roman Catholics should agree with this. If they do not, they either have not studied their own religion, or they should not claim adherence to that religion.

Clarifications: He is only infallible when teaching or speaking "ex cathedra." Offhand comments about faith and morality, and basically anything short of official teachings is not.

[Cynthia]

Based on my observation of how many adherents don't even know what the foundations of their particular branch of religion are. Purgatory is an example; if you are Roman Catholic, you should believe in the infallibility of the Pope in religious matters. The Pope has said that purgatory exists, and what it's function is. All Roman Catholics should agree with this. If they do not, they either have not studied their own religion, or they should not claim adherence to that religion.

=====================================
People's ties with groups they claim to belong to are often not baed on any sort of logic. Generally it is an emotional tie of some sort. If the Holy Mother Church were to expel everyone that disagreed with any of its may beliefs, there would be a whole lot fewer Catholics. The same is true for other religions, sects and political parties.

I find it amusing that the bit about how the Pope was infallible on doctrinal matters was only passed in the 1860's, though I think they made it retroactive to previous popes.

"The Roman Catholic Popes: Infallible since 1870" is not that great a slogan, if you really think about it, after all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

The Mormon prophets seem to have the jump on the Catholics, who still have not elected to declare that the Pope has a direct pipeline to the Supreme Deity. It would be a nice touch, but they'd have to make that one retroactive as well, and some of those old popes couldn't make the cut, I guess.

Generally it is an emotional tie of some sort.

That sort is a "spiritual tie".

No one ever said that all the human Popes following Peter on the rock were to BE Christ, himself.

Mankind is fallible but with Christ's and the faith in God through Christ, mankind has the chance to be more Christ like.

I find it to be a stretch of an argument when we expect humans to be exactly like the God they believe in 24/7.

I suppose it make those that come from a logical stream of being---shake their heads.

There is also the element of having faith in a God, which I suppose becomes lost in the translation for those who chose not to have faith.

[Amianthus]

Clarifications: He is only infallible when teaching or speaking "ex cathedra." Offhand comments about faith and morality, and basically anything short of official teachings is not.

Purgatory is official.

[Cynthia]

Clarifications: He is only infallible when teaching or speaking "ex cathedra." Offhand comments about faith and morality, and basically anything short of official teachings is not.

Purgatory is official.

Yea! I alway thought it was a good idea.

[Amianthus]

Yea! I alway thought it was a good idea.

Been that way for a long time.

[Henny]

Clarifications: He is only infallible when teaching or speaking "ex cathedra." Offhand comments about faith and morality, and basically anything short of official teachings is not.

Purgatory is official.

Of course it is. I was simply clarifying on infallibility as it is so often misunderstood.

[Xavier_Onassis]

Yea! I alway thought it was a good idea.

=======================
Purgatory exists, or it does not exist. If it does exist, then it has existed since the very beginning of the universe

It does not owe its existence to any human having decided that it is a good idea.

Or so, at least, the Holy Mother Church claims.