Author Topic: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric  (Read 2820 times)

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BSB

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2010, 10:11:08 PM »
Capture or kill is mentined twice and the lists held by the CIA and the military are mentioned twice also. But, never mind Canadian, I'm sure you'd know better then I.

BSB


sirs

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2010, 10:24:20 PM »
Isn't that the MO?     ;)
"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." -- Aristotle

Amianthus

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2010, 10:43:06 PM »
I read it.  Then after you posted what I just quoted, I read it again.  It had not changed since I first read it.  There was no mention of a kill or capture list.  The link referred only to targeted assassination.

Guess you missed these lines, then:

Quote
and Reuters reported on Tuesday that he was approved for capture or killing.

Quote
Both the C.I.A. and the military maintain lists of terrorists linked to Al Qaeda and its affiliates who are approved for capture or killing, former officials said. But because Mr. Awlaki is an American, his inclusion on those lists had to be approved by the National Security Council, the officials said.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2010, 11:13:01 PM »
http://news.mobile.msn.com/en-us/articles.aspx?afid=1&aid=36208306

That's what BSB linked to and it's what I accessed.  It consists of five paras.  Numbering the five paras from top to bottom, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, in which numbered para do the words "capture or killing" or "capture or kill" appear?

BTW, the link does say "1 of 3" but there is no hyperlink from the first page linked to that will take me to any other page.

Furthermore, the phrase "capture or kill" does not in itself indicate that "kill" is in any way a second alternative or that "capture" is the preferred outcome.  In itself it indicates that either outcome is equally acceptable, which is all but inviting the recipients of the order to murder the target.

BSB

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2010, 11:18:51 PM »
You're such a waste of everyone's time, Blower.

Christian Science Monitor

A report Wednesday in The New York Times indicated that what triggered US officials putting the Muslim cleric on the kill-or-capture list was their determination that he was not only inciting attacks against the US but also "participating" in them.   

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/0407/Anwar-al-Awlaki-Is-it-legal-to-kill-an-American-in-war-on-terror

Plane

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2010, 11:24:26 PM »
".....he was not only inciting attacks against the US but also "participating" in them.   "

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/0407/Anwar-al-Awlaki-Is-it-legal-to-kill-an-American-in-war-on-terror


I think that makes him a warrior, a participant in the war , fair game in anyones book.

What is the alternative ?

Amianthus

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2010, 11:34:07 PM »
BTW, the link does say "1 of 3" but there is no hyperlink from the first page linked to that will take me to any other page.

To the right of "1 of 3" there is a link labeled "Next >". I would have thought it would be obvious. You're so much smarter than us, you must be too smart to understand such simple stuff.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2010, 11:44:00 PM »
Here's a picture of it (click on picture for a larger version):
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Amianthus

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2010, 11:47:43 PM »
Just a note - I read entire articles before commenting. I don't just read page 1 of 3 and assume everything has been presented. Just like I don't read the first 20 or 30 pages of a 300 page novel and assume that I've extracted everything from that novel. But then again, I'm just a dummy, I'm not as smart as you are.

Just a bit of a hint. Your mileage might vary and all that.
Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. (Benjamin Franklin)

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2010, 12:52:08 AM »
<<You're such a waste of everyone's time, Blower. >>

I am crushed with the guilt of it all, and hereby implore "everyone" whose time I have wasted to please not allow me to waste even one more precious second of your time.  Just let me flail away in the losing battle against my own ignorance and stupidity and sink ignored into the swamp of unknowing in which I was spawned.   Thank you.

For those of you with a little more time to spare, it does appear that both the Christian Science Monitor and the NYT are referring to the same list, although the CSM version of the list is "Kill or Capture" and the NYT version is "Kill."  Seems to be an unresolved issue at this point, which paper got the name and intent of the list correctly.

I would expect that the usual arrest warrant is NOT a warrant to "arrest or kill."   Arrest" alone will probably do the trick, because a peace officer would be justified in the application of reasonable force to subdue resistance to arrest and even lethal force if necessary for self-defence where the resistance itself applies deadly force endangering the lives of the officers.  

So that separate authorization to kill in an arrest warrant would be superfluous - - unless it were intended as something more than an explicit authorization of a power already available to the arresting officer by law.  IMHO, the addition of a directive to kill in conjunction with an arrest order, particularly in such a flat "either or" dichotomy indicates that either outcome is equally acceptable.  Basically, it is giving the officers of the state to whom it is directed an incitement to murder.  It's just a whole lot easier to kill the guy than it is to arrest  him.

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2010, 01:10:24 AM »
<<".....he was not only inciting attacks against the US but also "participating" in them.   ">>

I understand that is the US government's official explanation for why he's on the list.  Obviously they need some kind of reason to put him on a death list, and an allegation of "participating" in attacks on U.S. targets would certainly sound like justification. 

However, it's ONLY an unproven allegation and moreover it's one that comes from the same source as "Saddam has WMD hidden away in there" and "torture at Abu Ghraib was just the work of a few bad apples, not government policy" and "the guys in the helicopter were engaged in a gun battle with the dead civilians" and a few thousand other egregious lies, going back all the way to "They attacked our ships in the Gulf of Tonkin."  Why anybody still takes the word of those lying fucking bastards seriously today is a complete mystery to me.  The simple fact is that the poor guy says things they don't like to hear and they don't like other people to hear, and so they marked him for death.  The rest of their allegations are more likely than not just another part of their daily production quota of lies and bullshit.

Amazing how many times they can lie to you outrageously and yet you will still believe everything else they say.  there's a word for that somewhere - - sucka.

What's funny is that the framers of the U.S. Constitution and particularly of the Fifth Amendment foresaw the whole situation unfold, over 200 years beforehand.  They KNEW that the government, any government, could overreach itself and order its own citizens rubbed out for the most frivolous or sinister of reasons, and that's why the Fifth Amendment is there in the first place.  IMHO, a "kill" list or a "kill or capture" list are virtually one or the same thing, the "or capture" being purely superfluous unless there is an intent to give added incentive to the kill order, with a veneer of legality.  Both orders are clear violations of the Fifth.

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2010, 01:29:12 AM »
<<To the right of "1 of 3" there is a link labeled "Next >". I would have thought it would be obvious.>>

Ooops, you're right.  Sorry, guys.

 
<<You're so much smarter than us . . . >>

"Better informed" is probably the phrase you're looking for, I wouldn't say "smarter."  I think some a you guys are pretty
smart, but totally brainwashed.

<<you must be too smart to understand such simple stuff.>>

Frankly, I don't see what smartness has to do with it - - the "next" link was positioned far to the extreme right, much like you guys in here, and I simply missed it.  You're more observant than I am.  BFD.  Get over it, for chrissakes.   Seeing the link in an unexpected place, apart from the main body of text, does not a genius make.

BSB

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2010, 01:32:57 AM »
Waste of Time says, "..the NYT version is "Kill"..."

How many people have to show and tell you that the NYT's version also says "capture or killing", and not once but twice.


BSB

What a moron!

Michael Tee

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2010, 01:48:18 AM »
Still missing the point. 

"Capture or kill" legitimizes the guy being killed as equally as it legitimizes his capture, and as such is a clear violation of his Fifth Amendment rights.  Only a fucking moron would equate being fingered by a bureaucrat with "due process."

BSB

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Re: NYT: U.S. Approves Killing of American Cleric
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2010, 01:52:47 AM »
No asshole, the point is you keep makin the same mistake over and over and over.

To your point? I don't care if they capture, kill, or fuck him.

BSB

BT, kick this shithead out of here.