L'Affaire Spitzer

[Universe Prince]

Prostitution SHOULD be legalized.  Because, after all, such gratuitous legislation of morality violates our rights to participate in such victimless crimes.

http://www.humantrafficking.org/countries/united_states_of_america

The U.S. Department of State began monitoring trafficking in persons in 1994, when the issue began to be covered in the Department?s Annual Country Reports on Human Rights Practices. Originally, coverage focused on trafficking of women and girls for sexual purposes. The report coverage has broadened over the years, and U.S. embassies worldwide now routinely monitor and report on cases of trafficking in men, women, and children for all forms of forced labor, including agriculture, domestic service, construction work, and sweatshops, as well as trafficking for commercial sexual exploitation.

I'm so sick of the moralistic prudes who try to force their religious views down our throats by criminalizing the world's oldest profession.  I mean it's anti-capitalism and anti-freedom.

http://www.humantrafficking.org/updates/743

"Shocked and scared, the two women were subjected to physical, mental and sexual abuse over the next year as they were forced to work 12-hour shifts stripping for local Detroit men?s clubs. According to immigration customs agent Angus Lowe, the men controlled the women through intimidation with guns and threats to hurt family members back home.

Katya and her friend are two of the estimated 17,000 young women and girls annually who are forced to work in the sex industry in the U.S. by organized criminals. ?Chicago, Houston, St. Paul, Minnesota, these crimes are happening in every community in America big and small,? says Marcie Forman, Director of Investigations for ICE (Immigration Customs Enforcement.)   ?We?re talking about money here. Millions of dollars and these people don?t think about these women as human beings. They think of them as dollars and cents,? Forman says. "

Damn those prudish bastards that want to keep prostitution illegal.

Aw hell. I shoulda seen this coming. I guess I'll just give u- Wait a minute. I didn't say human trafficking should not be against the law. Hey, I'll clear the air right now. Human trafficking should definately be against the law. Just so there is no confusion, I'll say it again. Human trafficking should definately be against the law. Prostitution on the other hand, wait, just so we're clear, voluntary prostitution should not be illegal. There is no reason to confuse human trafficking with people choosing to be prostitutes or with paying for the services of someone who so chooses.

From your notes there, Pooch, I notice that keeping prostitution illegal isn't exactly stopping the trade in human trafficking. And what else do I see there? In addition to "trafficking for commercial sexual exploitation" I see there was "trafficking in men, women, and children for all forms of forced labor, including agriculture, domestic service, construction work, and sweatshops". Hm. Damn those heartless wretches who don't want to outlaw farming, construction work and house cleaning for profit. Probably ought to outlaw factory jobs too, just so no one can run a sweatshop. What? No? We shouldn't outlaw those things? Okay. So then let's not keep prostitution outlawed.

Thanks for the help, Pooch. I couldn't have done it without you.

[kimba1]

this may shock some folks here

I don`t think it`s a victimless crime.
here in san francisco I`ve seen things that just say otherwise for me
the problem is this subject  is too complicated to say in a few sentence.
I`m not against consenting ADULTS doing this,but it`s just like mcdonalds
not a career and nothing to brag about and not do in your retirement years.

[Universe Prince]

Consenting adults. Hm. That brings up another thought. Two people meet in a bar, hit it off, decide they'd like to share a bed, go to a home or apartment or hotel room or whatever, have sex, and no one is going to stop them. They're consenting adults, after all, yes? A person arranges to meet someone for sex, which is then paid for, and suddenly we have a crime. Why? As long as it's two consenting adults, not with someone forced into prostitution by human traffickers, it's still two consenting adults who agreed to have sex.

"Like McDonald's" "not a career", but obviously some folks do make a career out of it, like McDonald's. As long as they are not forced into it or cheating anyone, what is that to you? Or me? Or anyone else?

I understand why some people oppose prostitution. It's certainly not a career choice I would ever advise anyone to make, legal or not. At the same time, I believe a person owns his/her body, and therefore owns his/her time and effort. On those grounds I will oppose and condemn human trafficking, but on those same grounds I will also say prostitution, consensual prostitution that is, should be legal.

If I'm wrong, tell me why.

[Universe Prince]

From Kerry Howley over at Reason:

an article - https://www.reason.com/news/show/34046.html

an interview - http://www.reason.com/news/show/34121.html

a blog post - http://www.reason.com/blog/show/125429.html

[Amianthus]

A criminal?
Uh? What are you talking about?
Under the Bank Secrecy Act, all financial institutions are required to file currency transaction reports
with the federal government for any deposit or withdrawal of more than $10,000.

And "structured deposits" are one way of avoiding that reporting; hence their illegality. What XO describes is one way of avoiding being reported.

[Stray Pooch]

Aw, I should have seen this coming.

Of course prostitution doesn't contribute to human trafficking.  Of course that hooker you pick up on the streets of Washington or Seattle or Chicago hasn't been forced into the life.  What the hell was I thinking?  All victims of human trafficking wear wristbands to identify them.  All kids who run away from abusive homes and find themselves in slavery have it tatooed on their foreheads.  Drug addicted girls who support their habits by allowing losers to use them for sex have that right, don't they?  And hey, if a kid is born with crack addiction or AIDS, it was the product of two consenting adults, right?

Oh no wait.  I'm just pandering to those damned feminists, aren't I?  I'm just using overdramatic hyperbolic strawman arguments.  The fact that thousands of girls are forced into slavery has nothing to do with prostitution.  Two separate issues entirely.

Except they're not.  Prostitution is NOT a victimless crime.  There are probably many girls who just figure, what the hell, it's my body and I don't mind giving it up for money.  But show me a prostitute who enjoys her work.  Perhaps the girls who get five thousand a hour (or however much they get to keep) figure the money is worth it, but it's far more degrading work to have any slob with enough money hump out his perversions on top of you than to scrub toilets or wait tables.  And the vast majority of prostitutes are NOT high-priced "glamorous" call girls.  No, I don't have figures to back up that claim, but I'm going to make it anyway. 

Of course by making sure that those issues are kept separate from the issue of prostitution, you get to say "Hey, no fair. Those are side issues.  Of COURSE I disagree with human trafficking!  I don't want women exploited.  I don't want to degrade women.  I just think the consentual sex between two perfectly happy adults should be legal.  It's freedom, damn it!"

But I'm wrong.  Sex for money is mostly a victimless crime.  Hookers are happy, baby.  Just ask Xaviera Hollander.  Penthouse would never lie to me.

[BT]

What XO describes is one way of avoiding being reported.

XO should hope he doesn't get pulled over by the cops for a routine traffic stop with that 11k in tow.

My guess is they will want to hold that cash until they can find the time to get around to checking out his lame story about wanting to buy a car. Shouldn't take long, couple of years at most, and maybe 11k worth of attorney fees to get the cash back.

[Christians4LessGvt]

[Xavier_Onassis]

I don't see the point of the cartoon. Perhaps Spitzer DID always look out for the little guy.
That is unrelated to his being bewitched by what could be described as the Great God Horn.

One could be charitable and kind to the poor and still be willing to lay out big bucks for his own personal pleasure.

Bruce Wayne ALWAYS looks out for the poor of Gotham City, but look at his lifestyle.
One batmobile costs enough to keep Spitzer in babes for months!

=====================================
Of course, Spitzer was looking out for the benefit of two kinds of little guys, one of which inhabits his pants.

[Christians4LessGvt]

[sirs]

 

Now that's a brilliant cartoon

[Amianthus]

He announced his resignation today, BTW.

[Christians4LessGvt]

[Christians4LessGvt]

[Universe Prince]

Of course prostitution doesn't contribute to human trafficking.

"The report coverage has broadened over the years, and U.S. embassies worldwide now routinely monitor and report on cases of trafficking in men, women, and children for all forms of forced labor, including agriculture, domestic service, construction work, and sweatshops, as well as trafficking for commercial sexual exploitation." So tell me, Pooch, does farming contribute to human trafficking? What about hiring people to clean one's house? Construction work, surely that contributes to human trafficking. Again, shall we outlaw these things, ending the demand for them as we obviously have with prostitution?

Oh no wait.  I'm just pandering to those damned feminists, aren't I?  I'm just using overdramatic hyperbolic strawman arguments.  The fact that thousands of girls are forced into slavery has nothing to do with prostitution.  Two separate issues entirely.

Except they're not.

Being forced into prostitution, duh, yes, that has something to do with prostitution. Gee, when you put it that way, it still doesn't change that prostitution in and of itself should not be a crime. Being maids and butlers and workers on a farm should still be legal but enslaving people into such work, yes, that should be a crime. Because, yes, there is a difference between enslavement and voluntary action.

Prostitution is NOT a victimless crime.  There are probably many girls who just figure, what the hell, it's my body and I don't mind giving it up for money.  But show me a prostitute who enjoys her work.

If I could find the Penn & Teller: Bullshit episode about prostitution, I would.

Perhaps the girls who get five thousand a hour (or however much they get to keep) figure the money is worth it, but it's far more degrading work to have any slob with enough money hump out his perversions on top of you than to scrub toilets or wait tables.

Don't you think deciding that ought to be up to the women? Or men?

Of course by making sure that those issues are kept separate from the issue of prostitution

I'm not trying to keep them separate. I'm trying to illustrate that there is a difference between coerced action and voluntary action. If person A gives money to person B, that is okay. If, on the other hand, B mugs A and forces A to surrender money, that is bad. It's not the exchange of money from one to the other that is bad. It is it coercion that is bad. If person C decides to take a job as a maid or butler with person D, there is nothing wrong with that. It is a consensual arrangement. If, on the other hand, D forces C into domestic service against C's will, that is wrong. It's not the work as a maid or butler that is wrong, rather it is the enslavement that is wrong. There is a difference between coerced action and voluntary action.

Of course by making sure that those issues are kept separate from the issue of prostitution, you get to say "Hey, no fair. Those are side issues.  Of COURSE I disagree with human trafficking!  I don't want women exploited.  I don't want to degrade women.  I just think the consentual sex between two perfectly happy adults should be legal.  It's freedom, damn it!"

By trying to illustrate that there is a difference between coerced action and voluntary action, and by saying that a person owns his/her body, yes, I get to disagree with enslavement apart from prostitution and say that consensual sex between adults should be legal. That you want to conflate human trafficking with prostitution, as if the two were exactly and always the same issue, is not my fault or sufficient reason for me to do the same.

But I'm wrong.  Sex for money is mostly a victimless crime.

Again, if one person voluntarily consents to perform sex with another person in exchange for money, who is the victim? Whose rights have been abused? The one who agrees to the exchange of his/her time and effort for money? The one who has decided to exchange his/her money for a service? What rights then have been trampled in this voluntary and consensual exchange?