Obama lawyers want the military to continue to bar openly gay people!

[Plane]

Being as dozens of countries have gays serving openly in the military, it must be possible to have gays in the military and still have a working military.

Could you point out one of these and how their effectiveness is just as good as American standards ?

[BT]

The UK, Israel and Russia all have openly gay personnel in their military.

The fact is most of NATO except for Greece and perhaps Turkey have gays in the military.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_orientation_and_military_service

[Plane]

Ok and these Armys are not looseing anything?

Isreal is a nearly 100% drafted force , and is very effective indeed. If we loose as much Recruiting and retention as I beleive we will ,we can solve the problem the same way that Isreal did.

Would changeing from an all volenteer force to a drafted one be a loss or not?

[Plane]

http://www.filmforum.org/films/yossi/israelstudyafs.pdf

As the number of countries that permit gay and lesbian soldiers to serve in the armed
forces has grown over the past two decades, it has become increasingly important to determine
whether official decisions to include homosexual service members in the military lead to changes
in organizational performance. Although most NATO countries as well as a handful of other
nations allow gay and lesbian soldiers to serve, there has been little empirical analysis of whether
the decision to lift a gay ban influences armed forces’ ability to pursue their missions.
Theoretical studies have addressed this topic but there has been no in-depth empirical work on the
actual consequences of a decision to lift a gay ban.1
Israel is a case in point. A few scholars conducted careful studies in the immediate
aftermath of Israel’s 1993 decision to abolish restrictions on gay and lesbian soldiers. However,
the long-term impact of the new policy was not yet apparent and even the most thorough of these
early analyses is only eight pages long.2

This essay mostly agrees with you , but it serves my point in this way , that no one is even trying to get a measure of the loss involved.

[BT]

Would changeing from an all volenteer force to a drafted one be a loss or not?

Depends on whether you were drafted or not.

Israel is a small country and compulsory service is required of both males and females i believe for a two year period.

The US is a larger country and i believe a lottery type system would suffice.

But let me ask you this question in return, would you rather go into a firestorm like Fallujah with a gay soldier having your back or a muslim american? Whose loyalty would you be less likely to suspect?

[Christians4LessGvt]

for the record....I oppose "don't ask don't tell" & I oppose homos in the military period.
it's not practical and could end up costing more money

If I were a soldier I would not want to be in showers with someone
looking at me "with wood".....do we want female and male soldiers
showering together?...Ummm why dont we do that?
Because of what can happen.
And that same thing applies if homos are in the showers with other men.
BTW...I know that can happen now...but why make it even worse?
Reality is what it is....
Why do we have separate bathrooms for male and females
because it doesn't work to mix in that close of proximity the sexes attracted to each other
so now we have the homo agenda forcing their way to openly have
homos in the showers...in the bedrooms with people they are attracted to.
If you are in a foxhole with two other guys...and those two guys are lovers
bullets are flying.....
do you really want two gay lovers looking out for each other in the heat of the battle?
i want two teammates with me....not two lovers
Sexual relationships on the battle ground have no place....it's insane.
The homo agenda will stop at nothing at forcing it upon us....not even national security

[kimba1]

cu the don`t ask policy has proven gays has seved in the military for a very long time and the lover scenerio has never been brought up as an excuse get rid of a soldier.

in fact the large percent of gay soldiers discharge have been by policy not ability or conduct.

but i do believe gays should serve as a separated division to ensure no blanket parties going on.

but the real fear is gays tend to become officers more than heteros,so eventually all soldiers will take orders from gays.

ex. more than half the gays I know was in the military and was an officer.
makes sense since the very reason san francisco gay culture is caused by the miltary base here.

[Christians4LessGvt]

cu the don`t ask policy has proven gays has seved in the military for a very long time
and the lover scenerio has never been brought up as an excuse get rid of a soldier.

I doubt that....
you put a bunch of homo men together and they are gonna do what they do
of course most soldiers never fight in a battle in a war
but i know I would not want to be in a platoon with several gay lovers
i dont want to have to worry about that shit under enemy fire
oh steve is gonna try and save bill because they are lovers.
or Jim had a lovers spat with Andy and they aren't speaking & the Taliban are coming over the walls
the hell with that.

"but i do believe gays should serve as a separated division to ensure no blanket parties going on"

yes I agreee Kimba thats the only way I could see doing it...and i dont think it is worth the trouble

[BT]

There were gays in the military when i served in the early 70's. Never would have known it unless they told me.

[Christians4LessGvt]

there are a small percentage of homos in society so i would assume so

[kimba1]

the absolute reason I doubt this would be a severe problem is that every single military leader in the U.S. who oppose gays in the military cannot and have not said gays should not serve because of ability or conduct.

you would think those 2 issues would be the forfront. you bring up conduct but have not brought any examples from gulf war,vietnam,korea,bosnia

all had gays serving in them and being discharged also.

totally target rich for conduct charges if any exist.
I`m not saying you should look for them, but I have serious doubt the military is turning a blind eye in favor of gays.

they of all people would be keeping score and making it public

you don`t want them serving, but so is the military.but is it a good idea to deny an ablebody & willing group of people.

[Plane]

But let me ask you this question in return, would you rather go into a firestorm like Fallujah with a gay soldier having your back or a muslim american? Whose loyalty would you be less likely to suspect?

I would suppose that the Gay soldier would have more problems when fighting in the territory of ultra conservative Muslims .

Muslim soldiers have two incidents of intended fratricide I know of.This is not a high rate.

Is this much like asking whether I would rather be burned or crushed?

[kimba1]

interesting
if i remember right jewish soldiers are not allowed in these areas.
has that policy been removed.

I have friends in the military and they have seen these guys mistakenly sent to these region to immediatly get recalled very quickly.

[BT]

I would suppose that the Gay soldier would have more problems when fighting in the territory of ultra conservative Muslims .

Why is that? For fear of harsher treatment if captured? Would that not be incentive to fight even harder?

A Muslim American soldier might not be near as fearful of harsher treatment and that might affect their will to perform above and beyond.

[kimba1]

actually I have serious doubt the muslim american would get prefered treatment.

wtc had quite afew dead muslims .

I don`t recall any data on gay european soldiers getting any harsheir treatments. it`s not like gay soldiers will be allow to wear differeing outfits
remember if gaydar really existed rock hudson wouldn`t have a career