Author Topic: Coulter Said What?  (Read 54096 times)

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Lanya

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2007, 04:14:15 PM »
via Glenn Greenwald

 So Ann Coulter appeared as a featured speaker today at the Conservative Political Action Conference -- the preeminent conservative event of the year -- and called John Edwards a "faggot." Her speech was followed by an enthusiastic round of applause from the upstanding attendees.

Last year at the same event, she warned Arab "ragheads" about violence that would be done to them and called for Supreme Court justices to be murdered -- and received standing ovations. Everyone knows what a rancid hate-monger she is, yet (or rather: "therefore") she continues to be invited to the highest-level "conservative" events, be drooled on with admiration by presidential candidates like Mitt Romney, and have little right-wing warriors wait in line around the corner to get her signature on their copies of the books she wrote.

But that's all fine. There are much more important topics to discuss -- like the anonymous commenters at Huffington Post and the bad words said by the bloggers hired for low-level positions by the Edwards campaign. Those are matters of the gravest importance meriting the most solemn condemnation and righteous outrage from all decent people. Those HuffPost commenters have uttered terrible thoughts, and that shows the anger, venom and hatred on the left, among liberals. It is cause for great alarm -- and for headlines.

But the single most prestigious political event for conservatives of the year is a place where conservatives go to hear Democrats called faggots, Arabs called ragheads, and Supreme Court justices labeled as deserving of murder -- not by anonymous, unidentifiable blog commenters, but by one of their most popular featured speakers.

And after she does that, she is cheered wildly by an adoring conservative movement that has made her bigoted and hate-mongering screeds best-sellers, all while they and their deceitful little allies in the media, such as Howard Kurtz of The Washington Post, write idiot tracts about how terribly upset they are by the affront to decency from HuffPost commenters [in between writing obsequious, tongue-wagging profiles of Coulter's most radical ideological allies, such as Michelle Malkin, who penned a lovely defense of the internment of Japanese-Americans, for which even Ronald Reagan apologized (but, I believe, she never cursed while doing so, which is what matters most)].

This is why I wrote so extensively about the Edwards blogger "scandal" and the Cheney comments "scandal." The people feigning upset over those matters are either active participants in, or passive aiders and abetters of, a political movement that, at its very core -- not at its fringes -- knowingly and continuously embraces the most wretched and obvious bigotry and bloodthirsty authoritarianism. They love Ann Coulter -- and therefore continue to make her a venerated part of their political events -- because she provides an outlet, a venting ground, for the twisted psychological impulses and truly hateful face that drives the entire pro-Bush, right-wing spectacle.

The more delicate ones will claim to repudiate her comments in the most limited terms, but their actions speak far louder than their cursory and reluctant words. Anyone who went to this event -- and that includes Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, and Dick Cheney -- knew exactly what they would be getting. Coulter's face was prominently plastered on the promotional material. The right-wing political candidates who accepted the invitations to speak there knew exactly the type of people would be there - namely, the type who continously cheer on Ann Coulter's bigoted and nakedly hateful screeds. Anyone who makes themselves a part of that event is purposely associating themselves with those sentiments. That is what this Conference is for.

None of this is news, particularly. This is a movement propelled by an insatiable hunger for more slaughter and more wars. It is centrally dependent upon hatred of an Enemy, foreign or domestic -- the Terrorist, the Immigrant, the Faggot, the Raghead, and most of all, the Liberal. As John Dean brilliantly documented, that is the only real feature that binds the "conservative" movement at this point, the only attribute that gives it identity and purpose. It does not have any affirmative ideas, only a sense of that which it hates and wants to destroy. So to watch as the crowd wildly cheers an unapologetic hatemonger is perfectly natural and not at all surprising.

But we should, at the very least, be able to have a moratorium on all of the scandals driven by their claims to be so offended and upset when anonymous commenters on a blog say mean things, or when bloggers use curse words, or when Senators transparently botch a joke. The ugliest and most obscene sentiments are openly expressed not by their blog commenters or even bloggers -- though that is true -- but by their most admired and successful political leaders, the ones whom their presidential candidates desperately seek to embrace and for whom their most committed throngs cheer wildly.

That is why it is difficult to refrain from commenting, with increasing disgust, on all of their Decency and "anti-Anger" scandals, abetted by the Howard Kurtzs and Terry Morans of the world who are every bit as much one of them as they are anything else. This is a movement driven by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity -- who, along with Bill O'Reilly, are by far the most popular and successful right-wing pundits. Shouldn't every rational and decent person convulse with anger or at least scornful laughter whenever this movement claims to find offensive or upsetting indecent remarks coming from others or when they accuse others of being angry and hateful?

UPDATE: The Conference attendees who will say that they do not approve of Coulter's "joke" will act as though they found her behavior unexpected or surprising -- just as they did last year and every other time she has made similar comments. But three weeks ago, Coulter was on Fox and made virtually identical remarks -- not about Edwards specifically, just the hilarious complaint that people who say the word "faggot" have to enter rehab.

No right-wing supporter (that I know of) complained when they learned that Coulter would be a featured speaker at this event. No prominent "conservative" (that I know of) refused to be a part of the event because Coulter was a featured speaker. Thus, any claims to find what she said so deeply offensive should be weighed against their much more meaningful actions in attending.

UPDATE II: Andrew Sullivan was (I believe) present at this event, and said this about Coulter's speech:

    When you see her in such a context, you realize that she truly represents the heart and soul of contemporary conservative activism, especially among the young. The standing ovation for Romney was nothing like the eruption of enthusiasm that greeted her. . . .

    Her endorsement of Romney today - "probably the best candidate" - is a big deal, it seems to me. McCain is a non-starter. He is as loathed as Clinton in these parts. Giuliani is, in her words, "very, very liberal." One of his sins? He opposed the impeachment of Bill Clinton. That's the new standard. She is the new Republicanism. The sooner people recognize this, the better.

She is the face of what the hard-core Republican Party has become, particularly during the Bush presidency. That is why she holds the position she holds in that movement. That's why Mitt Romney was giddy with glee when her name passed his lips. He knows that her endorsement is valuable precisely because she holds great sway within the party, and she holds great sway because the hard-core party faithful consider her a hero for expressing the thoughts which they themselves believe but which other, less courageous Republican figures are afraid to express.

This is not about a single comment or isolated remark. The more Ann Coulter says these things, the more popular she becomes in this movement. What this is about is that she reflects exactly what sort of political movement this is. She reflects its true impulses and core beliefs. If that were not the case, why would she continue to receive top billing at their most prestigious events, and why would she continue to be lavished with rock star-adoration by the party faithful?

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/03/02/cpac/index.html
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BT

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2007, 04:34:34 PM »
Quote
The badge was given to me in the First Amendment. I have every right to criticize ANY candidate, pundit, columnist, or man on the street.  This entire website is based on that concept. 

And who said you didn't have the right to criticize Ann Coulter's remarks, even if you are giving a broad reading to first amendment privileges as it pertains to this forum.

I'm just wondering who gave you the job of demanding that others criticize her along with you, and if they don't, the right to punish them by calling them stupid or liars or both?

BT

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2007, 04:50:33 PM »
If CPAC absorbs blame for Coulters's remarks because they invite her to give remarks, wouldn't the same apply to the MSM and hosts like Chris Matthews who have her come back after making her trademark outlandish statements on their very own shows.

A year or so ago she not only speculated that Bill Clinton was a latent homosexual with bath house tendencies but that Al Gore was a total fag.

A while back Lanya made the charge that Republicans want to give women cancer. A Coulterish statement if there ever was one.

A broadbrush charge based on the opinion of one interest group that a vaccine in development should not be made mandatory. Yet i don't recall a rush to denounce Lanya by the liberals and or democrats in this forum, nor do i recall demands that they denounce being made by conservatives or republicans in this forum.

Why the double standard? Why are liberals subject to a lowered bar?

Plane

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #18 on: March 04, 2007, 04:55:59 PM »
If CPAC absorbs blame for Coulters's remarks because they invite her to give remarks, wouldn't the same apply to the MSM and hosts like Chris Matthews who have her come back after making her trademark outlandish statements on their very own shows.

A year or so ago she not only speculated that Bill Clinton was a latent homosexual with bath house tendencies but that Al Gore was a total fag.

A while back Lanya made the charge that Republicans want to give women cancer. A Coulterish statement if there ever was one.

A broadbrush charge based on the opinion of one interest group that a vaccine in development should not be made mandatory. Yet i don't recall a rush to denounce Lanya by the liberals and or democrats in this forum, nor do i recall demands that they denounce being made by conservatives or republicans in this forum.

Why the double standard? Why are liberals subject to a lowered bar?



How much simularity is there to the incident in which Whoopi Goldburg got raunchy in criticism of Bush?

Stray Pooch

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #19 on: March 04, 2007, 05:17:52 PM »

And who said you didn't have the right to criticize Ann Coulter's remarks, even if you are giving a broad reading to first amendment privileges as it pertains to this forum.

I'm just wondering who gave you the job of demanding that others criticize her along with you, and if they don't, the right to punish them by calling them stupid or liars or both?

I neither demanded that anyone criticize Ann Coulter nor called anyone a name.  I did state that we ought to criticize.  That is a statement of opinion, and while you are correct in stating that the first amendment does not directly apply to this forum, I think it is reasonable to say that expressing opinions is a primary purpose of this forum in the first place.  My opinions have always been strong and strongly expressed.  i usually agree with you.  I find it very hard to believe that you are getting upset because I disagree with you.  I am inclined to think you are reacting in this manner to illustrate a point.  If not, maybe I've been away too long.

I called nobody stupid here, nor did I call anyone a liar.  I disagreed with your position and with your analysis.  I compared you with Bill Clnton, [who was a liar] only in that you were using a similar debate technique.  (It depends on what your defnition of "is" is.)  My point wasn't that you were lying but that your argument was as weak as Clinton's.  I think if you took Ann's statement to a hundred people 99 of them would conclude that she called Edwards a faggot.  I find it hard to believe that you seriously think that statement did not make the implication.  Still, the world is full of differing opinions.  I certainly do not think YOU are stupid.  I also don't think you are lying - in fact I am not sure that stating an opinion CAN be lying.  But I do think that you are wrong in your opinion.  As to punishing people, disagreeing with them is not punishment. 

I claim the same right - on this forum or elsewhere - to criticize, analyze, express and disseminate opinions as anyone else.  That doesn't indicate the presence of a badge - just a mind. 

I can't believe I am having this debate.
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Plane

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2007, 05:36:25 PM »
I neither .......nor called anyone a name. ...

I called nobody stupid here, nor did I call anyone a liar.  .......  I compared you with Bill Clinton, [who was a liar] only in that you were using a similar debate technique.  (It depends on what your defnition of "is" is.)  My point wasn't that you were lying but that your argument was as weak as Clinton's.  ..............



Is being compared to a faggot worse than being compared to Clinton?

Facine s ought to sue.

BT

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2007, 05:49:08 PM »
Past is prologue

Quote
But three weeks ago, Coulter was on Fox and made virtually identical remarks -- not about Edwards specifically, just the hilarious complaint that people who say the word "faggot" have to enter rehab.

The Edwards question was used as a seque to her rehab punchline. I doubt it was anything more. She is an entertainer, no more a spokesperson for a political party or philosophy than you are.

And my original point stands. The folks at CPAC are no more obligated to apologize for or denounce Coulter's remarks than members of the left on this board are obligated to apologize for or denounce Lanya's hateful remarks.

That onus belongs to the speaker of said remarks.

But you are correct in some of what you say.

Labelling my arguments as Clintonian and then clarifying that Clinton is a liar does not in any way mean you specifically called me a liar. You left just enough wiggle room to reasonably argue that you didn't. Coulter's remarks also had wiggle room, but apparently 99 out of 100 didn't see the gap, so there is no doubt she called Edwards a fag even though you conceded that technically she didn't.

I don't recall saying disagreement is punishment.

I do think rediculing a position whether by calling arguments Clintonian and by implication chock full of lies, or

Quote
My interpretation is the one any rational analysis of the sentence would lead to.  This grammatical discussion is silly. It is completely reasonable to say that Coulter implied Edwards was a faggot.  I am dismayed that you are using this line of logic to defend your position.  You are WAY better than that.  

Implying that a position is silly, shocking, unpopular  and beneath one is a mild form of punishment. Who among us other than Knute enjoys being the object of scorn?

Quote
Coulter's comments were garbage and she should be criticized.

Feel free to criticize.

Quote
If we are not calling Ann on the carpet for these outrageous comments, we are giving tacit approval.

This is the crux of the matter. A classic if / then scenario that in my opinion doesn't wash. If this statement is correct then Chris Matthews tacitly approves of Ann Coulter and the liberal/dems in this room tacitly approve of Lanya's hateful remarks. Is that the case?





« Last Edit: March 04, 2007, 06:05:24 PM by BT »

domer

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #22 on: March 04, 2007, 06:23:39 PM »
Ann Coulter is a disgrace, a sloppy one at that, who uses any rhetorical device she can conceive (can she conceive?) to outrage, which is her substitute for thought and her stock in trade, aside from peddling her skinny little ass.

BT

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2007, 06:31:23 PM »
Ann Coulter is a disgrace, a sloppy one at that, who uses any rhetorical device she can conceive (can she conceive?) to outrage, which is her substitute for thought and her stock in trade, aside from peddling her skinny little ass.

See Domer can denounce her without the need for a posse to cover his back.


domer

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2007, 06:33:38 PM »
She is also a mediocre light from a lesser law school.

BT

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2007, 07:39:24 PM »
She is also a mediocre light from a lesser law school.

Domer's bravery is to be applauded!

Stray Pooch

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2007, 10:00:25 PM »
BT, I thought you might be getting at the point that my "implication" that you were lying compared to Coulter's implication.   But the two are not the same.  Coulter was, obviously, referring back to her original joke - and making another joke about PC.  That does not change the fact that she was implying Edwards was a faggot in order to make the joke.  

You're saying that I left "just enough wiggle room" is not true.  I made a very specific reference to a particular opinion being Clintonian. You were saying that "technically" she wasn't calling Edwards a Faggot.  Well, technically Bill CLinton did not have relations with that woman.  (Since he defined "relations" as direct sexual intercourse.)  But obviously any rational person would have taken a BJ as "relations."   By Clintonian I meant (as I clarified) using fine points of technical or grammatical finesse to support an otherwise indefensible position. In Clinton's case it was a lie.  In your case it was (or at least appears to be) making a weak defense for Coulter.  I can certainly see where you might rationally take that to mean that I was calling you a liar - especially since I called him a liar in my response.   But that was not the case.  You were expressing an opinion, and I really can't see how someone can lie doing that.  I simply meant that your defense was logically weak.  That is a critique.  If you view such a criticism as scorn, you are reading it more personally than it is intended.  

I also said that complaining about not being "forced" into criticism smacked of "You're not the boss of me" childishness.  Again, I can see where you might take that as calling you childish, and I suppose to a small extent it is.  But I simply mean to point out that your position seems to mirror that idea - not that you are, as a person, childish.  

I have always thought that you - along with a few of the other posters on this site - can take a direct challenge to your opinion without becoming personally offended.  I'm sure you understand the "separate the personal from professional" military ethic.  I am addressing your opinion - not you personally.  If you have taken offense, none was intended.  Where my poor wording or ineffective expression may have caused that, I apologize.  But I do not apologize for opining that Coulter ought to be criticized, or that failure to do so can indicate a tacit approval.  Nor do I apologize for thinking that a rational analysis of Coulter's statement makes that statement more than sufficient for leveling the charge that she called Edwards a faggot.  Both the accusation and the choice of term in levying it are inappropriate.  As to the rest, I would not stand in the same room with Ann Coulter, and being the egotist I am, I plan on continuing to express my opinion even if it pisses off the populace on both sides.
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MissusDe

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2007, 10:12:09 PM »
Quote
This is the crux of the matter. A classic if / then scenario that in my opinion doesn't wash. If this statement is correct then Chris Matthews tacitly approves of Ann Coulter and the liberal/dems in this room tacitly approve of Lanya's hateful remarks. Is that the case?

It comes down to this: who is responsible for the words coming from Ann Coulter's mouth? Unless we subscribe to the groupthink/groupspeak philosophy, then the only person responsible is the one who uttered them.  If Coulter feels she said something that requires an apology, then she knows full well how to get that message across.

We've had this type of discussion before....does the failure to condemn another's speech mean that you condone their position?  My opinion is that it does not.  Please feel free to agree or disagree, as may be the case. 

Or feel free to say nothing at all.

The_Professor

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2007, 11:26:09 PM »
"...Regardless of whether one believes it to be a choice or a hardwired response, it has little impact on anyone but the gay or lesbian person."

This is an inaccurate statement. This special interest group proposes policies that DO impact non-gays.

Coulter is only one of many spokespersons for the Right. This doesn't mean she speaks for the Right. Her opinions are her opinions. If you hold a different standard to her, then can't we hold this same standard to the Left? Want me to research every self-avowed spokesperson on the Left and produce something STUPID they said? Come on.

hnumpah

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Re: Coulter Said What?
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2007, 12:29:03 AM »
Quote
Got an example of this phenominon?

Liberals do not need to be as carefull with their language as Conseratives do.

Class A-one unmitigated bullshit, Plane.

Kerry makes a stupid joke about going to school or ending up in the military, and you guys are all over it - just take a look back in the archives. Look at how many times a Democrat has, intentionally or not, said something silly, or had something they said taken out of context, and the comments that go up in here, and who posts them. And you sit there and pretend Conservatives are some sort of saints that are so much better than the Liberals that they have to watch their every word lest they catch the same hell. Jee-zus H. Christ on a crutch.

I used to have some respect for you as someone who took pains to try to see both sides of an issue. More recently, I've come to see you as just as big a hypocrite as the rest of them.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2007, 12:41:37 AM by hnumpah »
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