Author Topic: Siding with the Sunni  (Read 4102 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Siding with the Sunni
« on: July 31, 2007, 02:38:55 PM »
I guess all the talk at Iran, despite knowing that the Sunni insurgents were responsible for the majority of the violence in Iraq has come to fruition. We've chosen our side, the same side Saddam chose and the British Empire before him.

A green light to oppression
Brian Whitaker
July 31, 2007 1:30 PM

link

In a move supposedly intended to counter Iranian influence, the US has announced a series of arms deals with Middle Eastern countries.

Apart from Israel, which will receive $30bn in military aid, Egypt will get $13bn. Five Gulf states - Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman and the UAE - will also be sold weaponry to the tune of $20bn, with the lion's share going to the Wahhabi regime in Riyadh.

Thus, in the name of "working with these states to fight back extremism" (as secretary of state Condoleezza Rice put it), the US is arming two of the Arab world's leading human rights abusers: Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

The reaction from Tehran was predictable. US policy "is creating fear and concerns in the countries of the region and trying to harm the good relations between these countries", foreign ministry spokesman Mohammad Ali Hosseini told reporters in Tehran. And he's absolutely right.

If the Bush administration's goal was to inflame Sunni-Shia tensions across the region and to spread the sectarian strife in Iraq to neighbouring countries, it would be hard to imagine a more effective way of going about it.

Although Iran is the worldwide centre of Shia Islam, there's an important distinction to be made between Shia Muslims and the Iranian regime. The question is how many people will actually make it. Marginalised Shia communities in the Gulf states and Egypt will undoubtedly feel more threatened, while others will interpret the American move as a green light to oppress them further.

In Egypt, the tiny Shia population is already harassed by the authorities and treated with suspicion. Some of this has been documented by the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights. Its report talks of Shia Muslims being arrested - ostensibly for security reasons - but then being subjected to torrents of abuse by state security officers for their religious beliefs.

One officer is quoted as telling a suspect: "I'm going to keep tabs on you. If you try anything, I'll make you regret it. I'm prepared to forgive the members of the Gamaa'a Islamiyya [the armed Sunni Islamist group], although they murder us, but I wouldn't forgive you, because at least the Gamaa'a Islamiyya shares my creed."

In Saudi Arabia, where Shia account for 20% of the population (and, more critically, 75% in the oil-rich region), the official policy, as Matthew Mainen of the Institute for Gulf Affairs noted recently, is to treat them as polytheists, idol worshippers, and as part of a vast Jewish conspiracy against Islam.

"Matching the indoctrination of Saudi Arabia's public education system, governmental practices and policies reinforce the notion that Shia Muslims are subhuman. Shia books, education, music, and art are banned in Saudi Arabia. Shias are further barred from playing any political, social, or religious role in Saudi society, and are not even allowed to provide testimony in courts of law ...

"As long as Saudi Arabia continues to promote and practise an ideology holding that it is the obligation of Sunni Muslims to purge Islam of Shias in the great jihad, hundreds of Saudi insurgents will continue to cross the Iraqi border to further the sectarian violence without hindrance from the Saudi security forces."


As the US state department itself has observed in a report on religious freedom in the kingdom:

"Members of the Shia minority are subject to officially sanctioned political and economic discrimination ...

"Members of the Shia minority are discriminated against in government employment, especially in national security-related positions, such as in the military or Ministry of Interior. While there are some Shia who occupy high-level positions in government-owned companies and government agencies, many Shia believe that openly identifying themselves as Shia would have a negative impact on career advancement ... While there is no formal policy concerning the hiring and promotion of Shia, anecdotal evidence suggests that in some companies -including companies in the oil and petrochemical industries - well-qualified Shia are passed over for less-qualified Sunni compatriots ...

"The Government also discriminates against Shia in higher education through unofficial restrictions on the number of Shia admitted to universities."


Viewed from Washington, bolstering tyrannical Sunni regimes against Iran might seem like pragmatism - a convergence of interests. But it's a dangerous sort of pragmatism because the American and Saudi interests are ultimately different. The Saudi government isn't really worried about Tehran; it's worried about keeping the lid on its Shia population in the oil-rich eastern province - and in the long term that can only rebound negatively on the US.

Just as there is a need to recognise that Jews in general are not responsible for the actions of the Israeli government, nor ordinary Muslims for the actions of al-Qaida, Arab states must be careful not to automatically treat their Shia communities as tools of the Iranian government, or encourage the public to think that they are.

What the region needs most right now is not more arms but a concerted effort to promote religious tolerance, to combat religious discrimination and prejudice, and to draw the Arab Shia communities into the political processes of their home countries before it is too late.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 02:40:47 PM by _JS »
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

The_Professor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2007, 05:02:20 PM »
Some might say, JS, that there are some very vald reasons for supporting the Sunni over the Shia. Can you think of what these might be?
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

gipper

  • Guest
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2007, 06:05:13 PM »
Professor, evocative though vague, the word "clusterfuck" aptly describes what's going on in and about and because of Iraq right now. There are no good choices, as the given wisdom has recognized at least since the Baker-Hamilton Report, and before to wary observers. This is the legacy of Bush's blunders. Our task now is to salvage the best possible outcome from an array of poor alternatives. Is this (aligning with Sunnis) the best we can do? Absurd as it appears, the question nonetheless has to be entertained. That's how bad things have gotten, whilst Bush dreams on of a "victory" only he and his entourage, it seems, can imagine.

yellow_crane

  • Guest
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2007, 06:57:18 PM »
Professor, evocative though vague, the word "clusterfuck" aptly describes what's going on in and about and because of Iraq right now. There are no good choices, as the given wisdom has recognized at least since the Baker-Hamilton Report, and before to wary observers. This is the legacy of Bush's blunders. Our task now is to salvage the best possible outcome from an array of poor alternatives. Is this (aligning with Sunnis) the best we can do? Absurd as it appears, the question nonetheless has to be entertained. That's how bad things have gotten, whilst Bush dreams on of a "victory" only he and his entourage, it seems, can imagine.


Since a cloyingly sentimental concern for the residents of Iraq after pullout seems to overshadow all other weighings of a possible political solution to Iraq, perhaps we need to crawl out of that codependent hole and be more realistic instead of being more morally righteous.

What will happen to Iraqis will happen, and their eventual destiny is concerned not only with the fact that America under Bush has created the collateral damages they will inevitably suffer, but also with their history of a seemingly chaotic replay loopings that have kept them the way they are for centuries, pitted against one another and ending up mostly settling their differences with the savagery that Saddam Hussein only excelled in, but did not invent.

Perhaps is it morally presumptive and inimical to all concerned that we cannot get past the perfectly conceived solution.

Some things happen, and just cost a lot, and are best handled with a tough love affirmative move, instead of one wallowing endlessly and hopelessly, waiting for a perfect solution.

War and the ending of war, for instance.

Especially wars conceived for third party gains. 

gipper

  • Guest
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2007, 08:15:21 PM »
Frame it as you will, but the legacy of Iraq both in moral terms, which Crane seems to eschew as maudlin, at best, but also as to character of the country -- the concern for more than onself -- will reverberate through the generations as a point we can proudly live up to or as one we can cravenly try to live down.

The_Professor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2007, 08:36:18 PM »
Well, then, your solution is to?
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

gipper

  • Guest
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2007, 09:19:46 PM »
My "solution" is to think and offer ideas, endlessly, which you can use or ignore at your whim. Come the time when I HAVE to have a "solution," rest assured, brother, it will be well thought out.

The_Professor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2007, 02:43:37 AM »
Nothing wrong with brainstorming, gipper.
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

yellow_crane

  • Guest
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2007, 06:41:56 PM »
My "solution" is to think and offer ideas, endlessly, which you can use or ignore at your whim. Come the time when I HAVE to have a "solution," rest assured, brother, it will be well thought out.
   



Ahhhh . . . SOOOOOO true!

And, unhampered by your unmatched humility regarding your own efforts, let me add that I especially appreciate--beyond the letter-perfect lattice of your logic, the profound symmetry of the unlimited undeniabilities of your ambidextrous mental contructing, wherein each and every sterling idea is a beam that girds with incredible gravitas--two things:

l)  the overwhelming, driving pace, wherein every sentence contains all the yin and yang of a small universe

2)  the spectabular roman candle conclusions, always well peppered with buoying toastmaster bromides.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2007, 07:01:36 PM »
I don't accept that the US ha chosen to side with Sunnis .

In Iraq we supported elections that Sunnis nearly boycotted because of the perception that the Shia were our stooges.

That was not true either.

The US hasn't chosen a sect of Islam as  favorite, but if you were to ask one of the leaders of one of those sets which we have chosen as a favorite they might point to another sect ,whichever s their own least favorite.


In reality we don't care, but is that truth politicly usefull?

gipper

  • Guest
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2007, 07:42:53 PM »
I take it, then, that my humble offerings are thus intelligible, if not scintillating, as opposed to yours, which are consistently neither. Hey, Crane, let's do an exercise. Yeah, that's it. You construct a scenario projecting the impact of a quick withdrawal on innocent Iraqis, and why or why not it matters, and I'll respond. I have the feeling that you'll reveal yourself to be an Ugly American indeed, ego-driven and bereft of any hint of morality.

The_Professor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2007, 07:44:02 PM »
My "solution" is to think and offer ideas, endlessly, which you can use or ignore at your whim. Come the time when I HAVE to have a "solution," rest assured, brother, it will be well thought out.
   



Ahhhh . . . SOOOOOO true!

And, unhampered by your unmatched humility regarding your own efforts, let me add that I especially appreciate--beyond the letter-perfect lattice of your logic, the profound symmetry of the unlimited undeniabilities of your ambidextrous mental contructing, wherein each and every sterling idea is a beam that girds with incredible gravitas--two things:

l)  the overwhelming, driving pace, wherein every sentence contains all the yin and yang of a small universe

2)  the spectabular roman candle conclusions, always well peppered with buoying toastmaster bromides.

Ah, MAS.
***************************
"Liberalism is a philosophy of consolation for western civilization as it commits suicide."
                                 -- Jerry Pournelle, Ph.D

Xavier_Onassis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 27916
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2007, 01:14:01 AM »
It was well known that the Shiites outnumbered the Sunnis in Iraq, as it was also well known that Iran was mostly Shia, and that most of the Ba'athists were Sunni.

In any democratic election in such a situation, the Shia were obviously going to beat out the Sunni. That's why the invasion was so incredibly dippy.

Now Juniorbush's inept administration has decided to back the totally undemocratic Saudis (who are Sunnis) over the partially democratic Iranians. But Israel (who else?) gets the lion's share of the money.

Arming anyone in this part of the world is rather dumb.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

_JS

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3500
  • Salaires legers. Chars lourds.
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2007, 01:27:45 PM »
I don't accept that the US ha chosen to side with Sunnis .

In Iraq we supported elections that Sunnis nearly boycotted because of the perception that the Shia were our stooges.

That was not true either.

The US hasn't chosen a sect of Islam as  favorite, but if you were to ask one of the leaders of one of those sets which we have chosen as a favorite they might point to another sect ,whichever s their own least favorite.

In reality we don't care, but is that truth politicly usefull?

The reality is that we do care. This has nothing to do with asking "one of the leaders of one of those sets which we have chosen as a favorite." The evidence is in the actions taken and those actions are to provide massive amounts of funding and military contracts to predominantly Sunni nations that do not hide the fact that they discriminate against Shia Muslims.

Plane, who do you think provides the support for the armed Sunni insurgents? It does not take a lot of deductive reasoning to discover the answer because the leader of the country already told President Bush that he was going to support the Sunni in Iraq. They are our "allies" in Saudi Arabia.

Who causes the most deaths in total and to our troops specifically? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the Shi'a insurgents. Yet, all this administration has done is bitch and moan about Iran. Hell, the Shia don't need an armed revolution - they have the power, if they were allowed to use it.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 26993
    • View Profile
  • Liked:
  • Likes Given: 0
Re: Siding with the Sunni
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2007, 11:51:32 PM »
I don't accept that the US ha chosen to side with Sunnis .

In Iraq we supported elections that Sunnis nearly boycotted because of the perception that the Shia were our stooges.

That was not true either.

The US hasn't chosen a sect of Islam as  favorite, but if you were to ask one of the leaders of one of those sets which we have chosen as a favorite they might point to another sect ,whichever s their own least favorite.

In reality we don't care, but is that truth politicly usefull?

The reality is that we do care. This has nothing to do with asking "one of the leaders of one of those sets which we have chosen as a favorite." The evidence is in the actions taken and those actions are to provide massive amounts of funding and military contracts to predominantly Sunni nations that do not hide the fact that they discriminate against Shia Muslims.

Plane, who do you think provides the support for the armed Sunni insurgents? It does not take a lot of deductive reasoning to discover the answer because the leader of the country already told President Bush that he was going to support the Sunni in Iraq. They are our "allies" in Saudi Arabia.

Who causes the most deaths in total and to our troops specifically? I'll give you a hint, it isn't the Shi'a insurgents. Yet, all this administration has done is bitch and moan about Iran. Hell, the Shia don't need an armed revolution - they have the power, if they were allowed to use it.


We dd not choose to hate Iran , they chose to hate us , we didn't care what sort of Muslim they were in the time that they were our Allies and we don't care now.

I went to Navy schools in San Diego in 79 , Iranians were all over the place , I never had yet heard about the diffrence between Sunni and Shia but why would I care ? Why would anyone?

Now we have learned the diffrence , there is still no reason to prefer one or the other.