Author Topic: The State of Englishness  (Read 31305 times)

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kimba1

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2008, 12:04:24 AM »
Guess I`ll be the racist again

speaking of oprah
do you know why she open a school in africa ,instead of the U.S.
She wants to make sure people who really want to learn goes to that school
many rich african american have tried to open schools here,but quite afew had to shut down .
magic johnson tried but had to stop before he lose all his money
It`s that chris rock joke
I love black people,but I hate Ni&&&@rs
even bill cosby broke down and yelled about the situation on TV
I very much doubt blaming white people will stop this problem
I`m not saying it`s not true but must be acknowledged nothing will be gained from it.

Religious Dick

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2008, 12:18:18 AM »


Anyway, I find interesting that you think the Confederacy had a right to protect their culture. Not many people will say the culture of the South was worth defending. But what would be really interesting is finding out why you think the northern states, as led by Lincoln, were not attempting to defend what they perceived as the culture of the Union.

There are plenty of cultures I wouldn't bother protecting, however none of those happen to be my culture. But that's beside the point. I'm entitled to defend mine, others are entitled to defend theirs. They don't need my permission.

How do you equate defending one's own culture with outsiders imposing their culture?


Okay, but that doesn't answer the other questions. How would that protect "Englishness"? And how would it address the problem of immigration?

That one ought to be simple enough - they'd be succeeding from a government with other interests besides those of the English, and whose policies aren't necessarily conducive to their interests. Obviously, if a government uniquely interested in the interests of the English differed from the government of the UK on immigration, they'd be free to implement their own policy.


I doubt anyone but a geneticist could sort out the Saxons from the Normans at this point. However, that's irrelevant.


Well, I'd say so, but then, I'm not the one who posted an article talking about "indigenous" English culture.

"Indigenous" is relative - arguably, their isn't even indigenous life on the planet, according to some scientists. Indigenous, in this case, refers to the culture of the people who have inhabited what is known as England for the last 1000 years or so. I think that would satisfy most anthropologists.

Not usually, but that generally stems more from the accent than anything else. Anyway, what you seem to be ignoring is that all those customs and language and traditions are not some pure culture that has arisen in a wholly indigenous people. Like the rest of us, the U.K. has a mix of customs and language and traditions that come from many different peoples.

What you seem to be ignoring is that at this point that's irrelevant. The composition of the population stabilized a long, long time ago.

I could point out that the geography of North America is partly the product of long ago volcanoes and glaciers. That doesn't necessarily mean the introduction of more volcanoes and glaciers now would make it more livable.



« Last Edit: May 29, 2008, 12:30:11 AM by Religious Dick »
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Universe Prince

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2008, 02:18:11 AM »

How do you equate defending one's own culture with outsiders imposing their culture?


I don't. However much I dislike Lincoln and his policy choices, I recognize that trying to keep the Union together was not outsiders imposing anything.


they'd be succeeding from a government with other interests besides those of the English, and whose policies aren't necessarily conducive to their interests. Obviously, if a government uniquely interested in the interests of the English differed from the government of the UK on immigration, they'd be free to implement their own policy.


So are the English all in 100% agreement about what is conducive to their interests?


What you seem to be ignoring is that at this point that's irrelevant. The composition of the population stabilized a long, long time ago.


So forget the past, just so long as they protect the "Englishness" of now, is that it?


I could point out that the geography of North America is partly the product of long ago volcanoes and glaciers. That doesn't necessarily mean the introduction of more volcanoes and glaciers now would make it more livable.


Indeed. On the other hand, if a society has come to a place of prominence and prosperity as a result (in part yes, but a large part) of cultures and differing groups of people mixing, then trying to stop that process seems like it would be rather myopic and possibly even stupid.
Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever.
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Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2008, 10:04:31 AM »
Guess I`ll be the racist again

speaking of oprah
do you know why she open a school in africa ,instead of the U.S.
She wants to make sure people who really want to learn goes to that school

=======================================================================
I don't blame Oprah for putting her school in South Africa. It is because she has realized that that is where she could change the greatest number of lives for her money.

Talented Black Americans that have a lot of gumption can nearly all get scholarships to the best schools in this country. They do not need Oprah's help. Oprah did not need an Oprah top get where she is today: she had all sorts of obstacles in her path, being passed around between relatives, raped as a young girl, a goofy name, all the problems that befall thousands of Black women. But she managed to get where she was today by sheer talent and force of character.

What she is trying to do in South Africa is to help the talented and driven, who cannot expect to rise as she did, because South Africa is a much poorer country than the USA. Black women get a lot less respect in the RSA than in the USA, where they are nearly as successful as men. There are no Black South African Oprahs.

I spent 32 years teaching at a mostly Black private college here in Miami. We seldom get students that are both talented and driven like young Oprahs and Bill Cosbys. Many of those that are talented tend to lack the drive, and those that have the drive lack the talent. Those who have both get scholarships to Ivy League schools, or Howard, Moorehouse, or the better state universities. We graduate students who are capable of coping with standard middle-class jobs, just as Punxatawney State graduates  dependable White drudges.

About two thirds of my students are women. In a typical class of 25, I will have an average of 2 women drop out due to pregnancy. None of them has been married. I doubt that the early months of pregnancy are normally an unsurmountable barrier to finishing the class, but they invariable ask for an incomplete, and then fail to finish the requirements by the deadline. Typically, they will show up two days before the deadline and ask what they need to pass. Usually this is to complete several written assignments, take one or two exams and the final. Typically, they know no Spanish, quite often including stuff that everyone in Miami should know, like "Buenos d?as, ?C?mo se llama usted?,  el sombrero, caballeros and damas (the words on restroom doors)". Typically, they fail and drop out of college.

I have no idea why they can't just use some form of birth control. I am sure they do know were babies come from, and can only surmise that they have gotten pregnant because they prefer raising a child on welfare to studying.

There is a great amount of anti-intellectuality present in White American culture, but this is greatly multiplied in Black American culture. Sports and rap music are seen as the best ways to rise above the ghetto, and of course, neither of these is the sort of career that will typically result in success for more than a dozen years or so. In the same way, advertising of the sort that suggests that expensive crap will buy respect and success seems to be a lot more pervasive among Black Americans than among White Americans.

Rural Southern culture is divided among Blacks and Whites. Most American Blacks have their roots in the rural South. When the son of a sharecropper goes to college and joins the middle class, he is indistinguishable to White culture by the second generation, if not the first, from educated White middle class society. The Black son of a sharecropper is still Black, and can make this obvious to the rest of society only by improving his diction and a very careful attention to wardrobe, living quarters and such. The majority of poor Blacks that surround him are always a threat that can pull him down. White middle class people can have a drinking problem or a drug problem, but Black middle class people can only be seen as drunks and junkies by Blacks and Whites alike.

I know a number of Black Bohemian intellectual types here in Miami, some are my best friends, and they have a very difficult time winning respect from anyone. Not that White Bohemians get much respect in Miami, either. We do have the King Mango Strut, which has outlived not just the Orange Bowl Parade, but the Orange Bowl itself. I drove down NW 7th St yesterday, and it has all been razed except the scoreboard. I suspect it won't be long that this city-owned land will change hands with some corporation that will enrich some city officials and build something we really don;pt need, like condos or a shopping center.
 

Oprah and Bill Cosby are dead right about what they do and say. I am pretty sure that Oprah agrees with Cosby on damn near everything, but she is still in mid-career and making the sort of speech that Cosby makes would tend to wreck her career, and that would accomplish nothing positive for either her or anyone else. Cosby is retired, richer than God, and speaks out of desperation. Cosby has shown by his actions what he is sure is the ideal role model: after his success on I Spy, he took time out to work with the Children's TV Workshop, and then went to the University and got a PhD in Education. I can't think of any White American actors who have done half as much.  Oprah simply has sought to do the most good for the most people, and has seen that bestowing a capable, talented and driven female elite on the RSA will have far more effect than anything that twice as much money could do in the USA .
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

Plane

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2008, 01:02:30 PM »
There is a great amount of anti-intellectuality present in White American culture, but this is greatly multiplied in Black American culture. Sports and rap music are seen as the best ways to rise above the ghetto, and of course, neither of these is the sort of career that will typically result in success for more than a dozen years or so. In the same way, advertising of the sort that suggests that expensive crap will buy respect and success seems to be a lot more pervasive among Black Americans than among White Americans.



http://www.greggriffin.com/Editorials/CrabBucket.htm

Xavier_Onassis

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2008, 01:07:06 PM »
I have heard about the crab bucket syndrome from three or four other people. It appears to be a useful analogy.
"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana."

kimba1

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2008, 01:35:30 PM »
whew
thought i would get attacked for that one
thanks
I never heard of crab bucket,But i totally understand it
not in race ,but culturally
in alot of jobs in order to get a promotion you need to focus quite abit of energy in that job to get it.
But in alot of family cultures it`s frown upon to divert so much attention away from family
so many don`t understand a person needs to work overtime to pay for the additional expense of having a child.
the most common response is don`t worry it`ll all workout.
a good portion of my debt is family related


_JS

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2008, 03:48:37 PM »
Regardless, it takes more than a single elected president Plane. It took 400 years of learned behavior to create the racist system we currently have. It would take a hell of a lot longer to create a black racist system where black = normal and white = subhuman in America.

I think that's a bit beside the point though.

No, I don't see why time would be a factor.

It didn't take 400 years to reach its worst expression in Jamaca , it was practicly instant there.


Nor are there any 400 year old people running around carrying on an attitude.

If I am wrong then the racism of the out of power isn't new anyway , as Obama's pastor has demonstrated , there is plenty of prejudice ready to use on day one.

So what is directly to the point?  That an abismally racist attitude in a person who isn't white is totally excused?

Do you bother to read the posts? Seriously, I'm asking sincerely.

It isn't about 400 year-old people. It is about the establishment of a system. Primary racism is learned to create Domination through prejudice and exploitation.

Secondary racism, of which you speak, is merely a by-product. I made no value-judgment on it.

The point is that 400 years of dehumanizing Africans is not going to be erased in five years of Civil Rights law. Nor will it be fundamentally changed by lip service to "color-blind" society from people who still project their fears and deviancies onto the Africans.
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kimba1

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2008, 03:58:47 PM »
uhm even africans are not crazy about them
I`ve read articles about african cab drivers won`t pick up black fares
quite a few african immigrants look down on african americans.

_JS

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2008, 04:01:12 PM »
uhm even africans are not crazy about them
I`ve read articles about african cab drivers won`t pick up black fares
quite a few african immigrants look down on african americans.


That's not the point kimba, you're looking again at secondary racism...built upon the foundation of primary racism which is the 400 years of constructing a system, a nation, that dehumanized blacks.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

Plane

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2008, 04:01:35 PM »
Regardless, it takes more than a single elected president Plane. It took 400 years of learned behavior to create the racist system we currently have. It would take a hell of a lot longer to create a black racist system where black = normal and white = subhuman in America.

I think that's a bit beside the point though.

No, I don't see why time would be a factor.

It didn't take 400 years to reach its worst expression in Jamaca , it was practicly instant there.


Nor are there any 400 year old people running around carrying on an attitude.

If I am wrong then the racism of the out of power isn't new anyway , as Obama's pastor has demonstrated , there is plenty of prejudice ready to use on day one.

So what is directly to the point?  That an abismally racist attitude in a person who isn't white is totally excused?

Do you bother to read the posts? Seriously, I'm asking sincerely.

It isn't about 400 year-old people. It is about the establishment of a system. Primary racism is learned to create Domination through prejudice and exploitation.

Secondary racism, of which you speak, is merely a by-product. I made no value-judgment on it.

The point is that 400 years of dehumanizing Africans is not going to be erased in five years of Civil Rights law. Nor will it be fundamentally changed by lip service to "color-blind" society from people who still project their fears and deviancies onto the Africans.

I think it would be nice if you read mine too....

It did not take anything like 400 years to establish the very worst racism , it can be done almost instantly. Notice the history of Jamaca where Slaves were treated as expendable from day one. Or the history of Hati where the whole system was reversed in the course of a single war.

It is not neessacery to have a 400 year old person to have a 400 year old tradition , but in a thirty year old person no learning is older than thirty years.

I do not accept you premise as valid or provable , history is loaded with contradiction for it.

Also I do not accdept that Secondary racism isn't racism or is really a diffrent thing than racism in any respect , why is sauce for the gander no good for the goose?

_JS

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #56 on: May 29, 2008, 04:09:09 PM »
Where did I say that secondary racism is not racism? It most certainly is. Nor did I say it was excusable or justified. What I said is that it is built upon the foundation of primary racism.

And yes, it is provable and has been done through psychology, sociology, and history.

Haiti is an extremely interesting story. It has also been used and abused by the United States in modern times. Haiti was the greatest fear of Southern planters. The 400 years refers to American history, it is not set in stone for all nations. My point is that in this country, 400 years of teaching white supremacy and black inferiority has not and will not be reversed in a five year span of changing laws.

That is why Bill Cosby is full of shit.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.

kimba1

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #57 on: May 29, 2008, 04:11:43 PM »
ok
but what`s the solution?
I already stated blame will not solve the problem
if anything it may perpetuate it.

Plane

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #58 on: May 29, 2008, 04:15:20 PM »
Where did I say that secondary racism is not racism? It most certainly is. Nor did I say it was excusable or justified. What I said is that it is built upon the foundation of primary racism.



What you are saying is that it is diffrent , and I am saying it is not.

The origional reason is important to know if one is trying to avoid repeating a mistake , but it sin't a diffrence in present effect.

I don't see why there should be any distinction made for secondary racism  it is a useless distinction.

As if the treatment for my phenumonia will be diffrent because I caught it on a snowy day from yours which you caught in a rainstorm.

_JS

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Re: The State of Englishness
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2008, 05:17:18 PM »
Where did I say that secondary racism is not racism? It most certainly is. Nor did I say it was excusable or justified. What I said is that it is built upon the foundation of primary racism.



What you are saying is that it is diffrent , and I am saying it is not.

The origional reason is important to know if one is trying to avoid repeating a mistake , but it sin't a diffrence in present effect.

I don't see why there should be any distinction made for secondary racism  it is a useless distinction.

As if the treatment for my phenumonia will be diffrent because I caught it on a snowy day from yours which you caught in a rainstorm.

It is important, because Primary Racism is the foundation. Without it, secondary racism does not exist or at most, has little effect.

Primary racism includes the projection from the dominant group onto the weaker groups.

Look at it this way. Secondary racism is nasty and mean. Yes. It is irrational. But it has no real affect without Primary racism. On the other hand, Primary Racism packs the punch. It is what relegates a group to economic misery. It ensures that the poor of the dominant group get their table scraps and remain loyal to the racist institutions.

Who ensures that blacks read a white version of American history? Who ensures that MLK is castrated and presented as a saint who preached the gospel of a "color-blind" society? Who makes certain that kids don't grow up to learn about how this country supported South Africa's Nationalist Government?

I know that I've done a poor job explaining, but look at it this way:

Secondary Racism is the basic racism that comes from a mix of innate fear of the unknown and different + learned behavior. How many blacks or Hispanics move into your neighborhood before you get uncomfortable and change your behaviors? Do you feel different in a room full of a different ethnicity? What myths do you associate with Roma, Jews, Catholics, African-Americans, Native-Americans that might not be true? Or it can be much more straightforward - "I hate those people."

Primary Racism is a fully learned system of racism. It is second nature and developed over time through society. Think of American individualism. It is second nature to most Americans. We aren't born with it - it is not genetic. We learn it, but not deliberately - it is pervasive throughout American society. It comes from our myths, stories, legends, films, celebrities, politics, history, heroes...make sense? Primary racism is passed the same way. It comes not through birth, but through passive knowledge. It is in our myths, stories, legends, films, commercials, television shows, history, heroes.

We lavish praise on Thomas Jefferson and the founding fathers for their wisdom and their love of freedom. We've turned the constitution into a sacred document and Christopher Columbus into a secular saint. Yet, Jefferson was a slaveholder and likely slept with at least one of his slave women. Some people justify this by saying that he treated his slaves well. The Constitution enshrines slavery - the holding of human beings as property. This is taught as the defining moment of freedom, but in reality it was freedom for whites and primarily for white men. It is white men who make the law, who write the history, who run the corporations. When "freedom" was given to the slaves, they were simply economic slaves to the same white plantation owners and political slaves to the whims of an hysterical white Southern culture.
I smell something burning, hope it's just my brains.
They're only dropping peppermints and daisy-chains
   So stuff my nose with garlic
   Coat my eyes with butter
   Fill my ears with silver
   Stick my legs in plaster
   Tell me lies about Vietnam.