The Summer of Love

[Michael Tee]

<<What class is Jane Fonda heir to?>>

Why not cut to the chase and ask what class Karl Marx belonged to?  Since the working class are terribly disadvantaged, it's only natural that some of their biggest champions come from the ranks of the middle class.  That there are middle class supporters of the working class does not in any way invalidate the fact of class divisions and class warfare.  The fact that Marlene Dietrich supported the Allied war effort did not mean that there was no national conflict between the Allies and the Axis powers.  Artists will frequently pick and choose sides based on their perceptions of right and wrong without reference to national boundaries because art itself is international.


<<I do not think this is true at all , American Rich people are frequently ex-poor themselves . . . >>

Most of America's wealthy are inheritors.

<< . . .  and the boundrys are hazy. >>

There's nothing at all hazy about the boundaries between the lives of poverty-stricken single mothers and Madonna. 

<<There is a Republican reputation for being the favoriate party of the wealthy , but there isn't a shortage of Democratic Millionaires either.>>

Just look at the conventions of both parties and figure out which one represents the money.  Of course there are millionaire Democrats.  They're the good guys - - they vote against class interests to benefit people of less means than themselves.  That somehow doesn't translate into a denial of Republican bad guys, rich people who vote their own class interests and don't give a shit about anyone else at all.

[BT]

People need to see your electoralism for what it is. Once the working classes decide to abandon it, they'll be that much closer to class consciousness and ridding this country of the depredations of bourgeoisie trappings such as destroying a person to get ahead in a career.

No offense JS , but aren't we treading deeply into cliche land with this polemic?

I doubt many people look at their bass boat as bourgeoisie trappings .

[Plane]

That there are middle class supporters of the working class does not in any way invalidate the fact of class divisions and class warfare.

Yes it does , if there are enough such.

And there are.

Many of the poor inherit poverty , about half of our rich inherit wealth, most of us are neither and not offended by the rich any more than we are offended by the poor.

[Michael Tee]

<<Yes it does , if there are enough such.>>

How?  What's the logic there?  If one middle class guy or a million middle class guys support the working class, how can the number of middle-class supporters affect the question of (a) are there classes in America? and (b) are there real conflicts of interest between the classes?

If there are two million slaves and ten million free citizens in a country, would you say the need for an anti-slavery campaign exists only if a few free citizens are opposed to slavery but does not exist if a substantial minority of free citizens are anti-slavery?  In either case, regardless of how much support the slaves enjoy from free citizens, there is a sharp line between free and slave, and a fight to free them.

And there are.

<<Many of the poor inherit poverty , about half of our rich inherit wealth, most of us are neither and not offended by the rich any more than we are offended by the poor.>>

Well, if more poor WERE offended by the rich, they'd respond a lot more actively to appeals to fight the class war and they'd be a lot better off in the end.

[Plane]

<<Yes it does , if there are enough such.>>

How?  What's the logic there?  If one middle class guy or a million middle class guys support the working class, how can the number of middle-class supporters affect the question of (a) are there classes in America? and (b) are there real conflicts of interest between the classes?

If there are two million slaves and ten million free citizens in a country, would you say the need for an anti-slavery campaign exists only if a few free citizens are opposed to slavery but does not exist if a substantial minority of free citizens are anti-slavery?  In either case, regardless of how much support the slaves enjoy from free citizens, there is a sharp line between free and slave, and a fight to free them.

And there are.

<<Many of the poor inherit poverty , about half of our rich inherit wealth, most of us are neither and not offended by the rich any more than we are offended by the poor.>>

Well, if more poor WERE offended by the rich, they'd respond a lot more actively to appeals to fight the class war and they'd be a lot better off in the end.

Talk about an unnessacery war!

The USA has no class that anyone is obliged to stay in. Every now and then someone will jump all the way from the bottom to the top or vice versa , but that is uncommon, what is very common is for people to rise or fall quite a bit and move within and across the boundrys they are near , so there is no real ceiling or floor at any level.

In the US the poor would have a hard time outnumbering the wealthy , depending on where you were drawing the line, but who needs to draw that line?

This is a good place to lift oneself much more than a bad place to drag anyone elese down.

There are virtuous poor and dastardly rich but their money doesn't cause them to be either way.

[Michael Tee]

<<The USA has no class that anyone is obliged to stay in. Every now and then someone will jump all the way from the bottom to the top or vice versa , but that is uncommon, what is very common is for people to rise or fall quite a bit and move within and across the boundrys they are near , so there is no real ceiling or floor at any level.>>

I think you're just living in a fantasy world.  There are always exceptions to every rule, but in general the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor from one generation to the next.  You have obviously mistaken the exception for the rule.

Immigrants are a special case - - what they might lack in formal education is matched by whatever separates them from the bulk of their countrymen left behind: drive, risk-taking and whatever cunning or ingenuity it takes to get them over the border.  They or their children are gonna make it.

I will agree with you only to this extent:  the U.S.A. is probably the country with the lowest barriers separating the classes anywhere in the world.  It really is the land of opportunity when compared with anyplace else.  People who in almost any other country would stand no chance of rising above their circumstances have their best chance to do so in the U.S. , and the U.S. therefore attracts a lot of the brightest and smartest, hardest working people from all over the world.  You can see this particularly in New York city.  Credit where credit is due.  This does NOT mean that the U.S. is a classless society, nor that the upper classes are not highly conscious of this and do not wage a constant form of class warfare, all the time denying (for purely tactical reasons) that the class war even exists.  These are two separate issues, is the U.S. a land of opportunity? (yesss!) and does class war exist in the U.S.?  (yessss!)

[Xavier_Onassis]

What is the point?

Vote for McCain, or the hippies will take over and move the capital to Haight-Ashbury?

McCain has not controlled spending. It has gone up each and every year that he has been in office.

We elected a couple of oilmen and look what that caused us.

Now we need to elect a military hack?

Please.

[_JS]

People need to see your electoralism for what it is. Once the working classes decide to abandon it, they'll be that much closer to class consciousness and ridding this country of the depredations of bourgeoisie trappings such as destroying a person to get ahead in a career.

No offense JS , but aren't we treading deeply into cliche land with this polemic?

I doubt many people look at their bass boat as bourgeoisie trappings .

I'm missing the part where a bass boat has to do with anything. You have to help me out, I'm just a dumb Southerner.

[_JS]

Talk about an unnessacery war!

The USA has no class that anyone is obliged to stay in. Every now and then someone will jump all the way from the bottom to the top or vice versa , but that is uncommon, what is very common is for people to rise or fall quite a bit and move within and across the boundrys they are near , so there is no real ceiling or floor at any level.

In the US the poor would have a hard time outnumbering the wealthy , depending on where you were drawing the line, but who needs to draw that line?

This is a good place to lift oneself much more than a bad place to drag anyone elese down.

There are virtuous poor and dastardly rich but their money doesn't cause them to be either way.

The problem with your analysis Plane is that you look at the class conflict as being limited to this country. It is not. Moreover, from reading your post, you completely misunderstand the meaning of class. It is not defined by what one's income level is. One's class is determined by his or her relationship with the means of production.

The United States has done well to insulate itself from class issues due to the historical focus in this nation on racial struggles, as well as other less important issues. Think about it, we talk about the American Civil War as "The Civil War." But truth be told, other than military history, the American Civil War was a backwater war. Most other nations had already settled the slavery issue. The Russians, not known for their enlightenment, had freed the serfs! We were amongst the last nations to allow women to vote.

Division is nothing new in the United States. It is just that the focus of this division has yet to be on behalf of the worker.

[Plane]

<<The USA has no class that anyone is obliged to stay in. Every now and then someone will jump all the way from the bottom to the top or vice versa , but that is uncommon, what is very common is for people to rise or fall quite a bit and move within and across the boundrys they are near , so there is no real ceiling or floor at any level.>>

I think you're just living in a fantasy world.  There are always exceptions to every rule, but in general the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor from one generation to the next.  You have obviously mistaken the exception for the rule.

Immigrants are a special case - - what they might lack in formal education is matched by whatever separates them from the bulk of their countrymen left behind: drive, risk-taking and whatever cunning or ingenuity it takes to get them over the border.  They or their children are gonna make it.

I will agree with you only to this extent:  the U.S.A. is probably the country with the lowest barriers separating the classes anywhere in the world.  It really is the land of opportunity when compared with anyplace else.  People who in almost any other country would stand no chance of rising above their circumstances have their best chance to do so in the U.S. , and the U.S. therefore attracts a lot of the brightest and smartest, hardest working people from all over the world.  You can see this particularly in New York city.  Credit where credit is due.  This does NOT mean that the U.S. is a classless society, nor that the upper classes are not highly conscious of this and do not wage a constant form of class warfare, all the time denying (for purely tactical reasons) that the class war even exists.  These are two separate issues, is the U.S. a land of opportunity? (yesss!) and does class war exist in the U.S.?  (yessss!)

"I will agree with you only to this extent:  the U.S.A. is probably the country with the lowest barriers separating the classes anywhere in the world."

And what would a class consciousness and war between the classes do to improve on that?

Class consciousness is gauche for the rich to display , and foolish for the poor to display and irrelivant for the most of us who are neither.

Class consciousness is a very bad idea for anyone, the rich would be better off being constructive , and many are , the poor are better off lifting themselves as often they do.

Immagrants arrive with no real advantages that Americans of every "class" can't have but someone that learned to leap with a pack on will leap high indeed when the pack is lightened. Would an American be wise to pretend that the government wouldn't feed him?

By the way , how many classes are there?Where is the convention for mine , my invitation got lost.

[Xavier_Onassis]

The class structure has been divided deliberately into two class struggles.

There is the economic and political class struggle, between the haves (ie the business oligarchy) and the have-nots, with the have-nots allied with the intellectual and artistic elements (educators, writers, filmmakers, etc.)

Then there is a phony struggle between the cultural classes: the anti-abortionists, gun nuts, antihomosexuals and religious fundies, who have been hornswoggled into seeing anyone who has a rational perspective as being an "elitist".

There are three basic issues in US politics: Rich vs. Poor,  War vs. Peace, and Black vs White.
Actually it is not really Black vs White anymore (now that Jesse Helms has bit the dust) it is people who are capable of seeing Black and White people as being potentially equal and deserving, and those who cannot.

The elite vs non-elite and the culture wars are a diversion, created at great expense by the oligarchy and their propagandists in order to  mask the above three divisions.

The "summer of love' has not one goddamn thing to do with the 2008 election. Neither does Jane Fonda

[_JS]

"Class consciousness is a very bad idea for anyone"

It doesn't quite work that way, my friend.

Might I suggest a thorough reading of Lukacs.

[Plane]

"... the meaning of class. It is not defined by what one's income level is. One's class is determined by his or her relationship with the means of production."

Which of course is not related at all to income level.


What purportion of Americans have no investment in stock or Mutual funds?

A battle with the Capitol owning class would be mostly with the pentions and funds that buy millions of shares on behalf of millions of participants.

So what makes Class consciousness a good idea? Divideing us into smaller scisms doesnt seem like a winner for anyone.

Edwards shot himself down with his "two Americas" ,pitting the rich aganst the poor works better in lands where these actually do hate each other. Lots of politicians have ridden this horse into power , but do we need a Robspierre, a Napolion or a Hitler?





BTW Edwards tried to split the rich and poor without makeing it clear which team he was actually on , this hurt too.

[Plane]

People need to see your electoralism for what it is. Once the working classes decide to abandon it, they'll be that much closer to class consciousness and ridding this country of the depredations of bourgeoisie trappings such as destroying a person to get ahead in a career.

No offense JS , but aren't we treading deeply into cliche land with this polemic?

I doubt many people look at their bass boat as bourgeoisie trappings .

I'm missing the part where a bass boat has to do with anything. You have to help me out, I'm just a dumb Southerner.

Pronounce it like this.... boose -wah- zee

Something that makes the poor furious , unless they are Americans.

[_JS]

"... the meaning of class. It is not defined by what one's income level is. One's class is determined by his or her relationship with the means of production."

Which of course is not related at all to income level.


What purportion of Americans have no investment in stock or Mutual funds?

A battle with the Capitol owning class would be mostly with the pentions and funds that buy millions of shares on behalf of millions of participants.

So what makes Class consciousness a good idea? Divideing us into smaller scisms doesnt seem like a winner for anyone.

Edwards shot himself down with his "two Americas" ,pitting the rich aganst the poor works better in lands where these actually do hate each other. Lots of politicians have ridden this horse into power , but do we need a Robspierre, a Napolion or a Hitler?

BTW Edwards tried to split the rich and poor without makeing it clear which team he was actually on , this hurt too.

On the contrary, Hitler would have loved your view. Fascism taught that class division was a very harmful thing for the state. It could be healed by nationalism. Put up enough symbolism, wave the flag, and especially infuse the nation with a racial scapegoat (be they Jews, Roma, Blacks, or Mexicans) and you'd often see class divisions melt away.

If you read Lukacs you'd realize that class consciousness has to come before any consolidation of power and redistribution of capital. I don't see that taking place through a limp democracy already bought and paid for.

It is not a case of "smaller and smaller divisions" as you keep protesting. There are really only two: the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. The fight is inevitable, though you keep harping as though there is a choice. The question will be whether the revolution is bloody, or whether the bourgeoisie understands the ramifications and simply hands over the capital to the rightful owners.